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Re: UML cooperation

From: Andrew Hill
Subject: Re: UML cooperation
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 23:35:20 +1300

vio wrote:
> Derek Neighbors wrote:
> > I know you all hate hearing this but I will say again.
> >
> > This is a GNU project. Freedom is AND will be VALUED over ANY feature.
> > Rational Rose discussions do NOT belong here.  I dont care how good it is.
> > It's a product that unless it under goes radical license change will not
> > be a part of this process.
> >
> > Now the other tools argouml or whatever else I assume are under some other
> > license that is free so if we want to compare them to Dia that is fine.
> > However, a decision has been made to use Dia for now as no tool at this
> > point is gonna let us model objects and spit out the proper application
> > server code we need.  So lets move on. :)
> >
> > Rather than brag how great rational rose is and give them a bunch of
> > moneyu, the FSF way would be to make plug ins to dia or contribute to some
> > other free modeling tool to get the functionality you need.
> Well, Derek, now you know why I keep myself only on the fringes of gnue, and 
> why I started the "duplicating" project. You only want to use tools 
> that are "blessed by the family" (the GNU family that is ... Don Derek  :-), 
> even if they are crap (sorry, I mean, still in early development) or simply 
> nonexistent. While I on the other hand "really!" don't care about this 
> religion, I just want the job done, the sooner the better, with the best 
> tools I can get my hands on. So I'm sorry for the duplication of projects, 
> but for the time being, I think I'll remain on the fringes of gnue still (and 
> push my myerp thing with whatever I fill like), as you guys are much too 
> restrictive for me.

Graphical development tools are not essential in anyway to the project.
They just help development
processes for large scale development.  

> > Freedom is AND will be VALUED over ANY feature.
> This "sounds" nice, but where is the meaning behind those powerful words ? 
> What is your understanding of the concept of freedom then ? I was only 
> talking about a tool in relation to this project, what's the "sin" in that ?

This is the FSF's vision. It is a necessity for any GNU project.

> Third, I only talk about RR because I strongly believe that it can "really" 
> help this project. And so does ArgoUML (though to a lesser extent), which is 
> unfortunately still far from RR's functionality, but then much better than 
> Dia: at least that generates Java source (if I recall correctly). From my 
> perspective, gnue is not really in a position to spit over any help it can 
> muster. Sure you can "move mountains" a tea spoon at a time, but there are 
> other more efficient ways. Life is short.

I still have to grasp how RR or ArgoUML will benfit GNUe in any
reasonable way.  
They don't generate any code that we need. They are only automate the
process of 'pen&paper to
headers' to 'RR to headers'. How many hours would it save us initially,
10, 20hours? of coding.
Theres no point.  
> Fourth, I don't want to extend Dia, I'm here for the ERP stuff (remember?).
thats fine.

> Fifth, a poor general is he who never changes his mind. Situations change, 
> new opportunities appear, you don't maintain an x months decision just 
> because you said so back then, you do it ONLY because it is still relevant to 
> the present situation. Adapt or die (hmm, how Darwinian of me).

I understand. But you have to follow though change processes. This list
has often been unforunte
in never following change processes though to their completion (working
application).  You can't
keep changing direction every week or month and not every getting
everywhere.  You need both
management and leadership, a single enity is very dangours.  Don't ask
me to go and redo the
whole sections of code on a weekly basis, well not until we get version
> Finally, if you want me to shut up, well it's your project, so I'll (try to) 
> respect that.  But as my grandma would say "You won't go far with That 
> attitude, young man". I believe you want to attract people willing to put 
> their free time and effort on your project, not scare them away. Else, you 
> will see your people shutting down or ... branching out. Trick or treat!

I for one don't want you to shutup. We have done a lot of work (many
MB's of just pure source
code) and i don't want to go backwards and dump all because we didn't
use the best tools for
the job but made do with what we had.  So don't ask me to do that
without real good reasoning.  I definitly want the best software. But i
am willing to make some comprimises to get there.

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