Re: systemd replacement or standardization

[marinus.savoritias]

Oct 15, 2019, 22:48 by bugs@gnu.support:

> * address@hidden <address@hidden> [2019-10-16 01:56]:
>
>> > In my opinion Gnome shall remain independent of the supervisor type.
>> >
>> I wasn't talking about bringing GNOME under control of GNU. I am talking 
>> about integrating with GNU technology. 
>> Build system, Init, service manager and so on. When and if they are
>> developed.
>>
>
> It is already integrated in various free software distributions. Which
> one are you using?
>
> Is it not integrated in yours?
>
I was specifically talking about the different build System and the integration 
with Systemd instead of GNU Shepherd. GNOME project is unwilling to support 
them.

>> > On Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre there is no systemd, and there is still
>> > Gnome, it works fine.
>> >
>> Sure it works fine. But that wasn't the point I was making. How much effort 
>> does it take for GNOME to work fine if you don't have Systemd?
>> In Gentoo they had a hell of a time to make it work without Systemd
>> and Guix doesn't have the latest version exactly yet.
>>
>
> I understand it is about cooperation between communities, one
> community is tending to support only systemd.
>
Which the Systemd community doesn't play nice to make their things standard.
>> > The time of GNU as sole operating system is already for decades
>> > over. The idea of Dr. Richard Stallman to build a new free software
>> > operating system was realized practically for many people back in time
>> > when somebody used Linux kernel and distributed first GNU distribution
>> > with it. Then when GNU Hurd was not as practical and usable, Linux
>> > within GNU became practical and usable.
>> >
>> > Now there are many various GNU distributions, each can decide which
>> > software to use. The distinction became blurry.
>> >
>> I think that points to a larger problem. As of right now we have a
>> lot of alternatives to various packages that are getting
>> traction. Nobody is eager to join the GNU project. Person or
>> project.
>>
>
> I see it as unfolded flower. Richard Stallman envisioned GNU operating
> system as a single leaf, it unfolded into bush of flowers. There are
> now many free software political groups promoting free software
> philosophy and many various GNU versions of free operating system.
>
> It changed over time, there is not one uniqu GNU alone for
> itself, system.
>
> Maybe some recruitment is necessary to hire new software packages and
> to basically ask for new GNU involved projects, that is up to GNU and
> FSF to invite people for those software packages that are necessary
> for future, like for example replacements for Skype and similar.
>
We have already for replacement for those, just not enough people.
>> I have been doing some reading on GNU the last few days. Seeing the
>> packages. Going through mailing lists. Outside of GUIX and their
>> packages and GIMP there aren't that many active projects.
>>
>
> Then I am sorry I do not know what you mean, for me the statement
> above is way too general.
>
> Look:
> https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/gnu-spotlight-with-mike-gerwitz-14-new-gnu-releases-in-september
>
>> For some reason we can't attract contributors.
>>
>
> Instead of general statement, why not say which software requires
> contributors in particular?
>
>> Now I have seen from Linux forums (Phoronix, Gentoo) that people are
>> trying to move away from GNU. Or they don't even know it exists.
>>
>
> Could you please give specific link instead of making it general
> statement?
>
> You are also free to introduce "Linux" forum users to what free
> software philosophy really is, as many users do not know about it. 
>
As I said this is not the right forum for the discussion. And no its not about 
them not knowing the philosophy.

>> To keep it short I don't think that other people have better tech
>> necessarily.
>>
>
> Question is not what is better, but if users are given rights as
> envisioned by free software philosophy.
>
The question is always if its better. People won't change because they are 
promised freedom. 
You have to get your foot in the door to convince people to comit. Check KDE 
for example.
>> I think GNU doesn't have contributors. And can't attract new
>> ones. And that is not because people are not coders or they don't
>> want Free Software.
>>
>
> Well that sounds to me as depressive useless statement. How many GNU
> mailing lists are you subscribed to?
>
About 20 right now maybe more. Still Subscribing.

>> > It is in most free software distributions already. Did you try it?
>> >
>> You mean GNOME right? GNOME has removed GNU from the name since a long time 
>> now.
>> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2010-April/msg00050.html 
>> <https://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2010-April/msg00050.html>
>> I have used seemed pleasant to use, good tech.
>>
>
> OK fine, but name or not name it is free software.
>
And?
>
> Richard Stallman have burried few seeds, and he is still placing it
> all over the world, and now we have bushes of flowers everywhere and
> plants growing in gardens, and each flower is free to smell and have
> various flavours.
>
>> The community when I started getting involved with GNOME pushed me
>> away. I don't like the culture.
>>
>
> I am sorry, but generalized statement are not useful, they give
> appearance of negativity. When lacking facts generalized statements
> create Fear, Uncertainty and Doubts = FUD. That does not help.
>
> If you have some particular constructive proposal, that would be good
> to propose.
>
As I wrote after that it is esoteric and unwelcome to a lot of stuff. I have 
seen a lot of cases on Gitlab when they deny stuff just because. Or are hostile 
against desktop environments that use GTK like XFCE. 
Or even to KDE when they don't cooperate to have their apps look nice there.

I understand that you like GNOME but I suggest reading on their Gitlab some 
issues and how the developers handle it. Also maybe some testimonials from 
people in other projects when they interacted with them.
>> > Which one do you use?
>> >
>> I am starting to get involved in KDE. After I read about their community and 
>> their Guidelines, I liked the culture. 
>> I actually proposed a KDE goal this year and it was picked as a focused. 
>> They seem much more open to peoples need and recieving feedback.
>>
>
> Which free software operating system distribution do you use?
>
> KDE is just desktop environment. I have that also on Hyperbola
> GNU/Linux-libre. Free software distributions are here:
> https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html
>
I know. That is where I found GUIX.
> That is excellent that you have proposed KDE goal for this year and it
> was picked as one. Keep doing so.
>
> I do not know about your experiences with "they seem much more open to
> peoples need and receiving feedback" -- as this gives appearance of
> something bad, but without saying specifics what is bad, for me who
> has precise feeling for specifics versus generalizations, it means
> nothing.
>
It wasn't meant as bad. It's Just that in a lot of Free Software communities if 
you are not a developer your voice isn't heard when you make a request. KDE 
seems to be one of the exceptions. 

>
> May I give specifics from my side? Sometimes I have proposed some
> changes in Emacs, and several people have welcome such changes, I have
> got a feeling of community in Emacs being open to people's need and I
> was receiving feedback.
>
> Jean
>
Fannys