Re: systemd replacement or standardization

[marinus.savoritias]

Oct 15, 2019, 21:47 by bugs@gnu.support:

> * address@hidden <address@hidden> [2019-10-15 22:38]:
>
>> So since we have GNU Shepherd and it will keep being developed why
>> don't we ask GNOME on their stance?
>>
>
> In my opinion Gnome shall remain independent of the supervisor type.
>
I wasn't talking about bringing GNOME under control of GNU. I am talking about 
integrating with GNU technology. 
Build system, Init, service manager and so on. When and if they are developed.
>
> In my opinion s6 and s6-rc is better, logical and more powerful
> system for service management, see: http://skarnet.org/software/
>
> And I have used it for quite some time, now using Hyperbola
> GNU/Linux-libre https://www.hyperbola.info which is using OpenRC, not
> bad, functional.
>
> Well the service management is good when it "just works", easy to
> setup, start, stop services, define run level.
>
I agree. OpenRC works good enough. I didn't have the need to do anything more 
in Gentoo than just starting services. I know that Shepherd, Systemd and the 
likes are more advanced though.
>
> I would like using GNU Shepherd, but now only Guix is using it and
> using Guix is bloated, it asks user to download bunch of packages for
> any version of the system, it compiles way too much, it is not a
> system for average users and certainly not for those located in
> countries with more expensive bandwidth.
>
>> By that I mean, GNOME has moved away from GNU build tools and
>> requires Systemd (I aknowldge you can replace it with forks but
>> still). I remember reading about a discussion to remove the acronym
>> too.
>>
>
> On Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre there is no systemd, and there is still
> Gnome, it works fine.
>
Sure it works "fine". But that wasn't the point I was making. How much effort 
does it take for GNOME to work fine if you don't have Systemd?
In Gentoo they had a hell of a time to make it work without Systemd and Guix 
doesn't have the latest version exactly yet. 

>> So in my opinion, we should reevaluate whether GNOME is a part of
>> GNU and how open are they to reintegrate to GNU if the right tools
>> are developed. If not, there are plenty of environments which are
>> open and were open in the past to not be tied to one
>> technology. XFCE,KDE etc.
>>
>
> There is not one single GNU operating system, so there are free system
> distributions and their maintainers decide how and which software to
> include.
>
> Gnome is one part of the system and it does exist and is already
> implemented in free software distributions.
>
> The time of GNU as "sole" operating system is already for decades
> over. The idea of Dr. Richard Stallman to build a new free software
> operating system was realized practically for many people back in time
> when somebody used Linux kernel and distributed first GNU distribution
> with it. Then when GNU Hurd was not as practical and usable, Linux
> within GNU became practical and usable.
>
> Now there are many various GNU distributions, each can decide which
> software to use. The distinction became blurry.
>
I think that points to a larger problem. As of right now we have a lot of 
alternatives to various packages that are getting traction. Nobody is "eager" 
to join the GNU project. Person or project. 

I have been doing some reading on GNU the last few days. Seeing the packages. 
Going through mailing lists. Outside of GUIX and their packages and GIMP there 
aren't that many active projects.
For some reason we can't attract contributors. 
Now I have seen from Linux forums (Phoronix, Gentoo) that people are trying to 
move away from GNU. Or they don't even know it exists. 

To keep it short I don't think that other people have better tech necessarily. 
I think GNU doesn't have contributors. And can't attract new ones. And that is 
not because people are not coders or they don't want Free Software.
What is the reason should be discussed on another list though.

>> The GNU desktop environment should be integrated with GNU in my
>> opinion.
>>
>
> It is in most free software distributions already. Did you try it?
>
You mean GNOME right? GNOME has removed GNU from the name since a long time now.
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2010-April/msg00050.html 
<https://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2010-April/msg00050.html>
I have used seemed pleasant to use, good tech.
The community when I started getting involved with GNOME pushed me away. I 
don't like the culture.
They are too entitled and esoteric for my tastes.
> Which one do you use?
>
I am starting to get involved in KDE. After I read about their community and 
their Guidelines, I liked the culture. 
I actually proposed a KDE goal this year and it was picked as a focused. 
They seem much more open to peoples need and recieving feedback.
>
> Jean
>

Fannys