Re: A proposed Roadmap

[olafBuddenhagen]

Hi,

On Thu, Sep 06, 2007 at 08:49:34PM -0500, R. Steven Rainwater wrote:

> I think the reason there are not more programmers inclined to work on
> the Hurd or, more importantly to me, the GNU OS, is because there are
> no releases. The general perception in the outside world is that it's
> dead.

I fully agree.

> I think a release of the GNU OS, with any kernel: Hurd, Linux, even a
> BSD kernel, would generate increased interest in the GNU OS and Hurd
> and cause more programmers to be inclined to work on it.

That's where I disagree. I don't see how releasing a Linux-based system
should generate more interest in the Hurd.

> No one expects early releases of an OS or a kernel to be production
> ready. What if Linux distros were not released until they were
> prefected? Fedora Core 1 sucked badly. Fedora Core 2 sucked less. The
> Fedora 7 running on my laptop today is mostly very nice but still
> sucks in a few areas. By making regular releases, though, there is a
> pereception that Fedora is always improving and a perception that it's
> an active project I might want to participate in.

Again, I fully agree.

> Imagine if RedHat had said, "There's no point in releasing Fedora Core
> 1. Let's keep working on it until it's better than Ubuntu and then
> release it."

Actually, Fedora Core is older than Ubuntu... But being based on Debian,
Ubuntu was better in most regards from the very first release :-)

> That would be silly. The problem is all those Linux distros are going
> to keep making releases and keep getting better. I think the longer we
> wait to release a GNU OS, the further behind we fall. Let's just jump
> out there and start competing!

Fully agree...

> A GNU OS version 1 (or 0.1 or 0.01) is going to suck no matter what
> kernel we put in it, but at least we'll have made a start. And once
> people see that, I think it will bring lots of new people to help and
> the rate of improvement will increase.

Well, GNU 0.2 and Hurd 0.2 were released some ten years ago. The Hurd
reports 0.3 as it's version number for a long time; just nobody cared to
actually make the release...

Otherwise, I agree again... Only that you are drawing exactly the wrong
conclusion: If a first new release will suck no matter what kernel it
uses, there is even less point not to use the proper kernel -- the Hurd
-- from the beginning.

Regarding releases, you have written all the things I feel very strongly
myself, just am not able to put into words. Thank you for that.

It's only the "let's start with Linux" part I don't see the point of.
The Hurd is far from being perfect, but that doesn't hinder development
of GNU; that's not a reason not to release with the Hurd as kernel.

> Reading about the history of the The GNU OS reminds me of a Doctor Who
> episode. It's been years since I saw it so I may have the story a
> little out of whack but it went something like this...
> 
> A spaceliner became lost and crashed on an unpopulated planet. The
> surivors decided they must repair their spacecraft, launch it, and
> achieve their freedom. So they started working on the ship. When the
> doctor arrived on the planet, he discovered that generation upon
> generation of the descendents of the original crash survivors had
> worked on the spacecraft for thousands of years, trying to get it to
> the point it was ready to launch. 
> 
> As he watched them work, the doctor realized the engineers had
> replaced the idea of repairing the ship with the idea of perfecting
> the ship. It had been able to launch and leave the planet for a long
> time. But as long as the engineers saw any imperfection in its design,
> they kept everyone in dark and forced them to keep working on it,
> until the great day in distant future when they would launch the
> perfect spaceship. The doctor, of course, revealed the truth to the
> people. They overthrew the engineers and launched the ship.

Nice parable -- it fits frighteningly well :-) (Especially regarding the
"let's wait for a new microkernel" mindset discussed in the previous
thread...)

-antrik-