Re: (Really) Free Software future Was: Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, ...

[Jesse Gibbons]

On Mon, 2019-10-14 at 12:07 +0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Sun, 2019-10-13 at 21:44 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote:
> > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,]]]
> > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example.]]]
> > 
> > Indeed, gnu-system-discuss is for system-level technical issues.
> > We set up gnu-community-private for nontechnical issues.
> > Please, everyone, move this discussion there.
> > 
> 
> The following is definitely on-topic for the gnu-system-discuss mailing
> list, as it is technical. 
> 
> I'm also Cc:ing this to guix-devel, who made the big mistake of
> publishing the joint statement to that list: (however, I'm a big fan of
> Guix, it is a major contribution to really free software, see below)

The only way I see this as on topic is guixsd would need to stop supporting
gnome if gnome is not actually free software and guixsd is to remain a
purely free distro. The guix developers would have a major interest in that.
> 
> I'd like to bring up two things you Richard was too weak to make a
> statement on historically: gnome and systemd.
> 
> Gnome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME When Miguel de Icaza
> destroyed the gnome project with his contributions to that project.
> 
> From August 2015:
> Me:
> > > OK; I understand that you cannot take action for software using the
> > GPL that you created (here systemd), even if Freedom 1 is violated.
> > > Nevertheless, can you please take your (GNU/FSF) hand off Gnome, it
> > is no longer (in my and many others opinion) a GNU project (and
> > hasn't been for a long  time, since Miguel took over).
> > Hi again. Sorry to bother you. In the world of free and open
> > software, systemd is one of the most mean creatures. And you from
> > FSF/GNU still don't have an opinion? Additionally, why are you still
> > supporting gnome; they don't adhere to the free software philosophy
> > any longer, it died with icaza :(
> 
> Me:
> >   > Additionally, why are you still supporting gnome;
> >   > they don't adhere to the free software philosophy any longer,
> > 
> RMS:
> > How so?
> > 
> >   >  it died with icaza :(
> > 
> RMS:
> > On the contrary, he betrayed us totally; GNOME has more or less
> > got back on track since his departure.
> 
> I don't agree and many with me don't either. Please exclude Gnome from
> ther GNU project list. That would be brave of you, still being the head
> of GNU.

I am not familiar with what icaza did to gnome. What's a good source for me
to read to catch up?
> 
> From May 2015:
> Me about freedom 1:
> > * The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it
> >   does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the
> >   source code is a precondition for this. 
> > Systemd: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd
> > violates freedom 1: (as well as the *NIX and KISS philosophy)
> 
>  
> > The agenda is very clear: Extend, embrace and extinguish. No other
> > distros will survive in the long term.
> 
> RMS from August 2015:
> > I know Systemd is free software.  As for its technical merits or
> > demerits, I have never seen it so I don't have an opinion.
> 
> Me:
> > Is there any way that you could consider taking away your/FSF/GNU
> > support away from Gnome. That would make a large impact in the Free
> > Software community (and maybe also in the Open Source community).
> 
> The above statement also applies to systemd. Perhaps we should divide
> free software into two groups: 1) Really free software where Freedom 1
> applies and 2) not-so-free software where Freedom 1 does no longer
> applies.
> Here gnome and systemd are in the second kind. Especially systemd, even
> if GPLed, is currently swallowing most of free software excluding large
> groups of people to make contributions. This is not a bright future for
> free software, it is destroying it (every vendor lock-in dream)
> 
> Thank you for your time.
> 
> 
> 
Free software by definition implies freedom 1 applies to it. If software
cannot be modified, it is nonfree.
If software is nonfree, then guix should not support it.