Re: [Fsfe-uk] Debian needs Welsh and Irish l10n help

[Jon Grant]

Hiya,

MJ Ray elucidated on 16/11/06 16:21:
>>> On Thu, 2006-11-16 at 13:44 +0000, Jon Grant wrote:
>>>> Without wanting to cause a stir with any cultural imperialism, perhaps
>>>> there are more important things than Welsh and Irish i18n..
> 
> Of course there are: famine, disease, poverty and so on.
> 
> However, for people who know Welsh or Irish, having a computer able to 
> communicate in that language can be very helpful.  The idea that using 
> another language would somehow make one less able to speak English is so 
> contrary to the available evidence that I'm amazed anyone posted it.  If 
> anyone in Britain has difficulty speaking English coherently, it is the 
> monolingual English, I'm sorry to say.

Who said make people use a computer in a language other than their
first? I certainly didn't. Also, what evidence do you have? Your point
doesn't make sense as it is, especially considering very view people
will be perfectly equal in ability of their first and second languages.
Sounds like you might have misunderstood my point which was essentially
about the relative merits of a common and popular language over a less
popular minor language as a first language.

I don't dispute the fact that some in britain also have difficult
speaking English, however that is unfortunately due to background and
upbringing than a desire to not speak English or learn a different
language (in my experience at least)

> I hope someone does clue you in fully off-list, but for now, see:
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6103176.stm
> Bilingual pupils 'are an asset'
> 
> http://education.independent.co.uk/news/article1943292.ece
> Bilingual pupils do better in exams, report finds

Just read both of these, they both support my point fully. Did you not
read them? Please re-read my message if you thought they didn't support
my point.. I wholeheartedly support Sir Trevor's 'English-plus' policy.
I do wish the BBC would employ a spell checker though! "spokesn" indeed.

> Hopefully the likes of Jon Grant won't deter anyone from localising free 
> software to Welsh, Irish and many other languages.

That's a bit strong and inaccurate, you don't need to revert to ad
hominem to argue your point. Who's deterred anyone from i18n? IMHO
you're miss-reinterpreting my points, as a certain President would say,
hehe.

If we can, we should all strive to be plurilingual in the modern world
that we
live, and definitely in a useful way. Without wanting to sound arrogant, I
speak 3 languages, all of them significantly useful. We should focus on
useful a head of marginal as Clit highlight in your links.

Give students and careers advisers the the choice of between students
being taught in a popular language and having a popular European or
Asian language as their second tongue and the majority would take that
option.

My point again then, a common and popular *first language* is more useful
to someone in their life than a minor uncommon one. Same applies to a
slightly lesser degree to a second language, it is more useful to the
person and the populace if it is equally common and applicable....n.
Forcing someone to learn, as a first language a minor language is
failing the student as much as it is failing yourself. If you can
separate my point from views about particular languages I think it will
be understood better.

In addition, all the people from one of those countries that I know told
me how they wished they had been given the opportunity to learn French
or Spanish as their second language to English, which was
universally thousands of times more useful in life. My point was based
on experience of the situation I got them them.

> Kevin Donnelly <address@hidden> wrote:
>> Paid â bwydo'r ellyll ....
> 
> Is that: don't feed the devil?  I hope this subthread is short and cold.
> 
> Nevertheless, I ask people to at least post an English translation for 
> the vast number on this list who don't yet understand Welsh.

I don't mind jokes like that. This is a friendly community list after all!!
Let's not turn this into a flame war.

Chenkyue ;)
Jon