Re: News about the macro archive

[Tom Howard]

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Hi Peter,

Peter Simons wrote:
> [Note: No technical points in here. I am just flaming.]

Well, I hope you enjoy the flaming as it can serve no other purpose.  My
question to you is how did a discussion become and flaming?

> Tom Howard writes:
> 
>  > Dude! I know a hell of a lot about maintaining a open
>  > source project, and yours seems to be struggling badly.
>  > Open your eyes. [...]
> 
> Hehe. You've lost perspective, Tom. What counts is the
> _contents_ of the archive, not the fancy HTML generation.
> And as I see it, sf.net seems to be struggling pretty badly
> with that.

For me the HTML generation has a care factor of 0.

The only reason why the SF archive is not up to date is because of your
recent changes to the layout.  Judging by the above comment, one could
be forgive for thinking that that was one of the motives for the change.

> I have a suggestion: Since you've made lots of cool
> improvements to the archive which I totally fucked up with
> my unreasonable behavior, why don't you commit these changes
> into the sf.net CVS instead? I mean, their directory layout
> still matches yours!

Cool changes?  I've made the licence changes that you requested (and as
your requested).  I know I've already asked this in a previous email,
but do you want me to merge the changes and commit them?

> Then your work wouldn't be lost, and you could apply your
> considerable knowledge to improving that project instead of
> mine, which -- let's face it -- is hopelessly lost already.

In most cases and forking of an open source project indicates a failure
at some level.  For a project as small as this it indicates a
significant failure, and it seams like something that you have no
interest in rectifying.  This saddens me.

>  > For such a small project, that says so much, but what's
>  > worse is that the Guidod's fork is ranked higher than
>  > yours (using Google). Doesn't this tell you anything?
> 
> It tells me you don't know how to use Google. Just an
> example. Search for "autoconf":
> 
>   http://www.google.de/search?hl=en&q=autoconf&btnG=Search
> 
> Curious, isn't it?
> 
> Want something else? Search for "autoconf <stdint>":
> 
>   
> http://www.google.de/search?hl=en&q=autoconf+%3Cstdint%3E&btnG=Google-Suche&meta=

I'm sure we could argue all day about how various searches yield
different results. As far as I'm concerned the projects are called
ac-archive and so that is what I searched for.

> Now look at the author of the macro that's found in the
> number one position. Yes, that a macro _Guido_ wrote. Now
> look closely at the URL of the site that's listed first.
> Google finds Guido's own macros on my site before it finds
> them on his.

Whatever.  The gnu archive is high ranked.

> And that ranking was assigned _before_ I made all the
> improvements to the web site, as you can see easily by
> following the link.
> 
> 
>  > I'm trying to help you clean up this mess [...].
> 
> Thanks, but no thanks. Improve sf.net. You could rewrite the
> formatting engine from the scratch maybe? It is written in
> Perl already, you see, therefore it is necessarily superior
> to the Haskell crap I have been writing, because the
> language you write a software in really matters a great deal
> for the quality of the solution.

You don't think having two archive is a mess?

> 
>  > [...] so there is only one archive.
> 
> Yeah, I'm sure Guido is going to shut down ac-archive.sf.net
> any moment now. That's really the drift I have been catching
> from his postings.

I am certain that if the features he (and I and others as well probably)
needs are implemented with the gnu archive then the SF archive would
stop having a purpose and quietly retire.  Why not work towards that and
see what happens?

>  > This cannot be done until it provides the features that
>  > the users and contributers need. Yes need.
> 
> You should stop talking about your own ideas in the third
> person, Tom. If _you_ want to do something, then _you_ want
> it. Not "the users". The users are several thousand people
> all over the Internet, you've never been designated their
> spokes-person.

Someone needs to be the voice of the masses.  The only person yet to
disagree with what I'm saying is yourself.  So, yes as a user and
contributor, I will do my best to represent fellow users and
contributors until I see some differing opinions.

> The GNU archive was good enough for sf.net to copy all its
> contents for over 5 years, so apparently it can't be _that_
> bad, can it?

No, it's not that bad.  I didn't say it was.  The SF archive was created
(from my understanding) because Guido needed some features that you
would not allow (or removed, I don't pretend to know the intricate
details) in the gnu archive.  What does not make sense to me is why
there was no room for them.

> 
>  > I may have been on the list for a very short time, but I
>  > am both a contributor and an user.
> 
> What does that gain you?

It makes me a stake holder.

> I am a contributor and user of
> dozens of other projects too, you know. That doesn't mean
> that the people who designed and ran the project for years
> don't know more about it than I do.

Even though you dare no admit it, there are issues with the gnu archive
that have resulted in the creation of another archive.  The problem does
not reside with Guido's archive, it resides with the gnu archive.  All
I've ever wanted to do since I joined so recently is help overcome these
issues, so the SF archive is no longer needed.

> You assume that you know better how to run the archive than
> I do. So go ahead and prove it. Join sf.net and kick my ass
> all over the Internet.

This is not a competition, though that's obviously how you view the SF
archive.  If you let me help, I think you will be pleasantly surprised
when the SF archive become redundant and disappears, though sadly after
this exchange, I doubt you would trust me. :(

>>From very recent experience, I can tell you that this
> feeling is very satisfying.

I have no idea how to even begin to respond to that.

>  > The reason why your archive is in so much trouble is
>  > probably because you show such distain for the opinions
>  > of people like myself.
> 
>  > BTW nice way to attack the person rather than the topics.
>  > Way to go, Peter.
> 
> Duh! There you do it again. Of course I was attacking you
> personally, Tom.

Why?

> Do you see me wearing a "Saint Peter"
> t-shirt?

No, but good line :)

> I'll happily apologize for doing it, just explain
> to me one thing before I do: How does your statement above
> _not_ attack me personally?

Which statement above?  As in the previous email, I am not aware of
attacking you personally.

> When I get flamed, I flame back. What did you expect?

I expected you to wait until you were actually flamed before you flame back.

>  > All the user really needs is `make install`

> They can. And unlike some other archive, the gnu.org
> installation doesn't need a special tool to access the
> macros once they are installed but works just fine with
> aclocal(1). I'm sure you'll find some serious praise for
> that achievement.

Well, all I can say is I'm glad that that feature is now there.  I still
don't understand why it was missing for so long.

>  >>> If you want to do something with it, go ahead, but
>  >>> please do it in a branch.
> 
>  > You know I won't. I've already explained that unification
>  > is my goal. Creating another branch would only take us
>  > further from that.
> 
> Then let me be blunt for a change: There is nothing more to
> unify. Now that the copying of contents is no longer a
> one-way street -- like it has been the last 4 years --, the
> sf.net archive doesn't have a single thing that the GNU
> archive would need.

I reserve comment until the dust settles on your recent changes.

> Everyone is welcome to join the effort according to the
> rules outlined in the policy at:
> 
>   http://www.gnu.org/software/ac-archive/policy.html
> 
> If you don't like that, use my contents and make a better
> site. That's why the stuff is free software. I won't bend
> over backwards to accommodate some people's bizarre ideas
> about what kind of technical things are "right" or "wrong".

Nor do you seem to consider to anyone's opinions bar your own.  Why
could this all have not been a healthy discussion?

>  >>> An Automake-based build system does exist already and is
>  >>> found in CVS as well as in the recent release archives.
> 
>  > Yes, [an Automake-based build system] is there now, but
>  > it was not when I started working on it, was it? It's
>  > kind of hilarious that you you can berate my opinions
>  > because I've been here for such a short time, yet refer
>  > to an existing build system as though is been around for
>  > ages, thats being implemented since I joined [...].
> 
> Use your head, Tom. Do you think I built the archive
> manually for the last six years?

Why was it missing from the users?

> Just because I didn't
> bother to release the build system doesn't mean it didn't
> exist.

One of the reasons the SF archive exists is because there was no build
system.  Why has it taken 6 years to provide this feature, when you had
it all along?

> I actually _told you_ I already had one and that I
> wouldn't want you to duplicate the effort. Surprise: you've
> been solving a problem that didn't exist. Deja-vu?

The problem did exist because the build system was not available to the
users.

> 
>  > I might also add, after I added the very same in
>  > ac-archive-build.
> 
> Yeah, I really needed to be inspired by your staggering
> technical expertise. Without the ac-archive-build stuff that
> never worked

IT did actually work, and I gave you instructions on how it worked.  To
work properly however I was waiting for the CVSROOT/modules file to be
updated, which since your change needs to be updated again.

>, I would have never managed to put that amazing
> build system together:
> 
>   dist_pkgdata_DATA = AUTHORS COPYING COPYING-Exception \
>                       ChangeLog NEWS README THE.ARCHIVE
> 
>   aclocaldir        = $(datadir)/aclocal
>   dist_aclocal_DATA = $(M4SOURCE)
> 
>   htmldir           = $(prefix)/html
>   dist_html_DATA    = $(HTMLDOC)
> 
> It really is rocket science.

I never pretended is was rocket science, but you knew what I was working
on, but you didn't say a thing when you put your own stuff under
ac-archive.  You even warned me about putting stuff in ac-archive as it
might break your tools.  Then I'm lambasted for complaining that I
didn't get a head's up.  Not nice.

Cheers,

- --
Tom Howard

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