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Re: Why is Elisp slow?


From: 조성빈
Subject: Re: Why is Elisp slow?
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 22:18:59 +0900

(As I am not currently familiar with how the Emacs codebase is structured) How 
does Emacs do FFI currently? If I recall correctly aren’t there ways to call C 
functions in elisp? Would it be hard to expose C functions (by compiling to the 
SysV ABI) and calling them in elisp (to write plugins in another language)? If 
I understand the current architecture of Vim correctly, Vim is also doing that; 
it’s impossible to not use VimScript to make plugins, glue code is essential.

> 2019. 5. 6. 오후 9:58, Ergus <address@hidden> 작성:
> 
> On Sun, May 05, 2019 at 11:50:16AM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>> The more I think about Guile Emacs and the Guile project itself, I start to
>>> think that it???s not a problem of manpower, but something more
>>> fundamental.
>> 
>> Quite right.
>> 
>>> Is it feasible (or even possible) to make two different high
>>> level languages to interoperate in the engine level?????
>> 
>> Language interoperation is very difficult, and even more so if you want
>> both languages to be usable "equally" (as opposed to a high-level
>> language with FFI bindings, say).  The .NET platform aims to do just
>> that, and note that it's fairly complex and the most successful
>> languages there were specifically designed/tweaked for that platform.
>> 
> It looks more complex because the starting point is a High level
> language as Lisp so any port will need many data types conversion and
> copies with the corresponding overheads (and ugly code).
> 
> All the infrastructure is based in the Lisp Objects, types and data
> structures and functions. But IF the base API were designed with basic C
> types (int, doubles, char*) and structs, and language agnostic, the
> interface with Lua, Python or Ruby will be pretty simple (even Fortran,
> or anything else).
> 
> That's what vim did and they now support many languages for extending
> and create plugins. (I know it is a different system and I am not saying
> we have to move in that direction right now.)
> 
> But, instead of create lisp object from C the only we need it to create
> an interface for the C functions that need access from Lisp and use them
> in the interactive or high level lisp specific functions. But the low
> level functions will be all exposed in the C library and we could access
> then even with dlopen in some cases.
> 
> Of course I am not saying that we should develop code inside emacs core
> with all the different languages or change language every 10 years. For
> me it is fine Elisp (or common lisp even better if that reduces the
> complexity of maintaining our on compiler and potentially improves
> performance). But to give the user the possibility to create plugins; a
> C API is much more useful and simple. And if we want to port some of
> those to elisp will be also easier. I specially don't share the choice
> of developing core parts (API) in Lisp directly because having them in C
> is faster, simpler, more accessible from outside if needed and usually
> gives less overheads to the starting time, and GC.
> 
> We already have the API with the modules, but if you see most of the
> complexity comes from creating and converting lisp types to something
> else and do callbacks to lisp functions, and parsing the arguments.
> 
> Defun or any other macro could be emulated if we have to, but again,
> that's just a complexity of making everything Lisp centric instead of C
> centric. 
> Bringing a C api and use Lisp for high level or interactive functions
> reduces overheads, simplify the C code we have and enables a more
> modular design. But I know that try to do that now is not realistic with
> the amount of code and people we have. So that's why I was talking about
> Guile, but after all it seems not to be realistic either.
> 
> So whats the alternative? Keep our interpreter as is and deal with few
> developers (and decreasing) and performance issues and a lot of code to
> maintain?
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>> For example, will it even make sense to have some Elisp macros in scheme
>> 
>> Interoperation between "similar" languages like Elisp and Scheme can
>> probably be made to be tolerable (e.g. I guess most Emacs-specific
>> special forms of Elisp, such as `save-excursion`, could be provided on
>> the Scheme side without too much trouble (famous last words)), but
>> macros seem pretty hard to handle in general (i.e. will require manual
>> work on a macro-by-macro case).
>> 
>>> land, or even lua land, python land, JS land?????
>> 
>> For these, macros aren't the only problem, since there's also the
>> problem of the different kinds of datatypes used.  What would JS objects
>> look like in Elisp, and what would Elisp objects look like in JS?
>> 
>>> I would like a JSish API for emacs when writing packages, not a low
>>> level wrapper around Elisp APIs.
>> 
>> Indeed.
>> 
>>> What would I do to use a Python module in JS????? Unless the language 
>>> itself is
>>> designed to be easily interoperable with elisp by superseding concepts (such
>>> as Clojure superseding Java), I???m pretty sure many people won???t be 
>>> satisfied
>>> in any kind of implementation.
>> 
>> Exactly.
>> 
>> 
>>       Stefan
>> 
>> 
> 




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