Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 20.05.2020 12:06, martin rudalics wrote:
>  >> Right.  In a "normal" session you have to create a minibuffer-only 
> frame
>  >> first and then delete the normal frame to get uniform behavior.  Emacs
>  >> does not offer a function to remove the minibuffer window from a normal
>  >> frame so this is the best you can get.
>  >
>  > Any chance to change the latter in Emacs 28? Is that difficult?
>
> It's hairy and that's why people never tried to change the ritual of
> setting up an initial frame with a minibuffer window.  Likely to make
> sure that if things go wrong anywhere, there's always at least one
> minibuffer window you can act upon or that displays vital information
> about what went wrong during setup.

I get the idea, but Emacs is not a whole computer, to try to keep 
running at all costs. The config can be fixed, and Emacs can usually be 
restarted. So whatever the original reasons are, a user option could 
still be doable.

> Note that producing the minibuffer-less + minibuffer-only setup is
> accomplished by 'frame-notice-user-settings' which deletes the initial
> minibuffer-equipped frame in a hair-raising fashion in order to make
> sure that at least one minibuffer window is available at any time.

I've also noticed that initial blink during startup, but didn't know 
what to attribute it to. Would be great to be able to avoid it.

>  > It would improve the starting experience quite a bit.
>
> The startup experience of general minibuffer-only frame setups or that
> of the setup with a minibuffer-only child frame?  I think these are today
> also affected by other parameters like, for example, whether you put
> these specifications into an early init file or the normal one.

The startup experience of pop-up-mini-mode. I can imagine two main 
scenarios:

- The user installs the package and turns the mode one. If we can't 
disable the minibuffer, maybe just enable the rest of the functionality, 
and describe minibuffer-disabling-on-init functionality separately? It 
could even just be a line we'd tell the users to put in their init script.

Alternatively, since you described what happens currently, 
pop-up-mini-mode could try to remember the current window configuration, 
create a new frame on the same position without a minibuffer, restore 
the window configuration there, and delete the original frame. Or is 
that something that could only happen during startup?

- pop-up-mini-mode is enabled in the user's init script. Is that worse 
than early init? We could try to document the early init as the best option.

>  > The main remaining annoyance is the blink when the child frame is 
> resized/repositioned.
>
> You would have to tell me more about that blink.  If it's due to the
> setting of 'x-gtk-resize-child-frames', there's nothing I can do about
> it.  If it's due to the delay implied by 'pop-up-mini-hide-if-empty',
> try to experiment with that.

My x-gtk-resize-child-frames value is 'resize-mode.

Blinking happens when it's resized. But not every single time.

Here's what I do:

1. src/emacs -Q --eval "(setq x-gtk-resize-child-frames 'resize-mode)" 
-l ~/.emacs.d/site-lisp/pop-up-mini.el

2. M-x ido-mode.

3. C-x C-f, type 'e'. If you're inside Emacs source directory, the 
completions should span 2-3 lines. When the child frame is resized, it 
will blink. Sometimes it looks like the mode-line quickly moves up and 
back (or at least _something_ grey moves like that).

Instead of ido-mode, fido-mode can be used with similar effect. Though 
blinking seems less frequent with it.

Another issue: when the child frame covers the scroll bar, it renders 
some junk on it.

>  > So how do you feel about a package in GNU ELPA?
>
> Not really enthusiastic.  The historical constraints of how to set up
> and use the minibuffer window are too restrictive IMHO so what you see
> here is just a workaround.  Maybe things will change in a couple of
> years.

Do you mean the child frame problems?

A package could declare that it only works on Emacs 28+, BTW.

>  > If we can move the settings into the definition of pop-up-mini-mode,
>  > it should be quite usable. And also do something with the scenario
>  > where someone installs it, turns on the mode, and simply stares at the
>  > error.
>
> What's so bad about that error?  It simply tells what is missing.  If
> you provide such a frame, things should work, even in parallel with the
> already existing minibuffer window.

I didn't understand what I needed to do from it, and I'm a fairly 
experienced user. When doing a package, we usually try to cater to even 
less experienced users. Not always succeed, but try to.

BTW, here's a today's thread on Reddit with similar complaints by users: 
https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/gmsnoy/minibufferecho_area_ergonomics/

One suggestion option is this package: 
https://github.com/muffinmad/emacs-mini-frame.

There are a few others with this goal as well. But none of them try to 
hide the minibuffer (or know that it's possible, looks like). They only 
create a child frame with an "effective" minibuffer, and position it to 
their liking. Whereas the minibuffer line is left untouched, and is only 
used as echo area.