Re: [Fwd: Re: [Synaptic-devel] synaptic-0.52-17 interface]

[sashko]

on 07/29/04 06:30 Michael Vogt wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 02:02:15AM -0400, sashko wrote:

> If you want to see packages that are new and don't belong to a certain
> section, you can define a filter that excludes e.g. the section "lib"
> and has the status "new". 
that can help, but honestly saying I never tried to define custom 
filters before, just because I never needed them with the old ui.

> Another options would be going back to a tree. But I don't think that
> a tree works well for the massive amount of packages we have to deal
> with in debian (~15000). Some sections like libraries are 1500
> packages big. You can easily get lost in there :)
no doubt. To get rid of that tree was perfect idea, but independent 
status sorting disappeared along  with the tree... :(

> A third option would be a new (optional) column in the package list
> with the section. We can make it sortable and it's possible to easily
> skip sections one is not interessted in. 
I don't thing that will help. If the splitting by section will be done 
according to that extra column only, then it means that at least half of 
15000 packages is displayed in the same window all the time for 
<Installed> or <not installed> status. The first issue here is that 
scrolling increment becomes too large, (I met such problems before in 
another software) and it is difficult to jump to desired section. 
Another point is, what if the user wants to resort that bunch of 
packages according to name (or he can just accidentally click on a 
column header) how long it takes to resort 7500 entries?

> I thought about a new column (optional) for the component a packages
> is in too (component for debian is "main", "contrib", "non-free"; for
> suse: "base", "suser-rbos", "gnome2" etc).
perhaps someone can find such columns useful (probably even me), but 
then you definitely should make them optional (hide/display) as well as 
rearrangeable.

> We can't include it into the properties window of the package for
> technical reasons. This needs to be modal (you can't do anything until
> the dialog closes), but the package propties window is not modal (it
> is updated on every click).
I got you.  Just wandering how it was working before (when "properties" 
window was a tab yet)

> Do you think a shortcut to the "Force
> version" menu item would help?
I guess it will be a bit better than current state.

> So it looks like we have a common pattern here. You can achieve it by
exactly! All my headache is just a result of that "status sorting" issue

> sorting by version (click two times on it). Then the uninstalled
> packages are on top of the list. But it's pretty similar to the above
> tasks. So I would be interessted what solution you like the most.
:) I cant tell you. Currently I'm on 0.48 and not going to upgrade until 
 0.53 is ready.

> We have the "search" button in the taskbar. A search is faster now
> than it was before.  But if you are looking for a search in the current
> package list, this is a regression, I agree. You can search with
> "CTRL-s", but it's really a bit hackish (opens a small box in the
> middle of the synaptic window where you can type in your querry).
just didn't knew about that. That should help. But isn't it the same box 
that was on a toolbar before? The functionality is the same, isn't it? 
So why just don't put it back where it was before?

>  We tried various stuff like a instant filter search but it didn't worked
> very well. I think the gtk hackers are working on a instant search for
> the treeview. You just start typing and the cursor jumps to the
> package. But this is gtk2.6 stuff (if at all).
I would prefer the cursor to jump after I click the button, just because 
if you do a typo,  it starts to look for something which is not exactly 
what you expected, but it takes your time anyway.

> > Now that "properties" window which I can call via right-click. Right now 
> > I'm working at 17" monitor. That additional window hides quarter of 
> > initial synaptic window. If I click in a list of packages - main window 
> > pops-up and covers Properties-window. It is just impossible to see them 
> > both clearly in the same time!
>
>
> Yeah, this is a very common complain. Personally I'm still unusre
> about it. I wonder what information is missing and if it would be
> feasible if we could put it in the current description window also
> (just a thought for now). So if everybody misses the dependencies, we
> could add them as text after the description. What information exactly
> do you miss? Or is it just "everything" :) ?
actually that tab was providing "Dependencies" (colored according to 
status) "provides" and "requires". I got used to have it visible. And 
description sometimes provides useful information (especially for the 
packages I haven't seen before), and sometimes it is pretty long. Now if 
you add dependencies list to the bottom of description it won't be 
convenient to read it.

> First of all, thanks for you mock-up. We actually had this design with
> two sets of filters during the development cycle. It was abandoned
> because I was constantly confused that I needed to click on two
> different "All" to really get all packages. I don't think this will
> work very well. 
Hm, interesting. I would just add  "reset" button, which  sets both 
filters to "all" state. But if it is abandoned already then nevermind.

> But I very much agree with the idea of having two
> orthogonal means to organize the packages. I think this works pretty
> well most of the time with the sortable columns. But we may need to
> add more (optional) columns for it. What do you think?
Do you mean to add an extra column for every possible type of status?
<new in archive> <upgradable><installed><not installed><queued> etc...
If you add them to the end of column list some users will never discover 
them. They are just too lazy to bother horizontal scrollbar. In fact, it 
really such configuration isn't  too convenient. In the case you add 
them as a very left columns then the rest of useful information will be 
shifted to the right which is also not the best case.

> > 2) To keep those tabs means present very useful information about every 
> > package in convenient, easily-accessible way. Personally I always want 
> > to see:
> > - description: just for case if i never saw that package before
> > - dependencies, if half of them are in red, probably I won't try install 
> > that package (now I have to wait until synaptix resolve all the 
> > dependencies for me)
> > - expert (that is how you call it in 0.48) - that is the third most 
> > important thing
>
>
> Thanks, this is interessting. I wonder if it would be feasible to put
> it into the current description window as additional information. Do
> you think the scrolling in this window is too much overhead?
As I wrote before, the description itself sometimes takes the whole 
Letter-format page, so if you add something to the bottom, 50% of users 
will never suspect about that appendix. Another 50% will find it too 
boring to scroll down every time you jump to another package and start 
complaining.

> A additonal question, does it take long before the "Mark additional
> required changes" window comes up if you click on a package? Too long
> to wait for it? If so, may I know what kind of machine you have? 
average machine is based on Barton 2500+,  RAM 512MB, Maxtor/WD 7200rpm 
200GB
That is not because it is too long, it's just because it could be faster.

just wandering, you still have tabs in "Properties" window. What if just 
make those tabs to appear as additional tabs in the description window 
or to make that properties window itself to be a dock-window instead of 
 free-floating one.

regards,
sashko