Re: [Fwd: Re: [Synaptic-devel] synaptic-0.52-17 interface]

[Sebastian Heinlein]

Am Donnerstag, den 29.07.2004, 02:02 -0400 schrieb sashko:

> > Take a look at the change log included in each release. By the way I
> > would call a clearer UI a benefit.
> yeah, I would call it a benefit too, but only in the case when UI 
> "improvement" doesn't decrease the functionality of software itself.

I am low on time. So forgive me my short answer.

> >>Example:
> >>1) I want "new in repository" packages to be sorted into sections. Can I 
> >>do that? - The right answer is NO.
> > As I have already said before, the main focus is not on pure providing
> > of functionality. Why do you want to accomplish this? In which task?
> I thought it is obvious.
> Look, today I added three more repositories to my sources.list and that 
> brought me another 300 pieces of software. However right now I'm 
> absolutely not interested in super-duper-extra-special CPAN-Perl 
> libraries, network sniffers, and tons of new dev-libraries mixed with 
> all possible kinds of kernel modules. Instead of that I'd like to see 
> what they offer for multimedia and office. That was pretty simple with 
> the version prior to 0.5 (I guess). But now I can spend 2 hours 
> "fishing" the packages I'm interested in.
> And that is just because filters "New in archive" and "section" are in 
> the same bunch and not applicable simultaneously.

This is a deficit. It is not planned as a repository browser. We focus
on managing the software. Why did you add the repository if you didn't
know why or which packages are included?

> The same problem I meet with "Upgradeable" packages. I don't want to 
> upgrade all dev libraries because I know definitely that there is some 
> kind of software which is tied to certain versions of libs, and I need 
> that software. But I still would like to update the rest of packages...

There are customizable filters for advanced stuff. Create a filter that
shows all upgradable packages excluding packages with "-dev" oder "-
devel" in its name and of section "Libraries".

> >>2) I have 2 repositories in my sources.list offering the last version of 
> >>the same package, but one of them has extremely low download speed. Am I 
> >>able to choose which one to download from? Well, you know the right 
> >>answer already.
> > 
> > At first you should put the faster repository before your slower one in
> > your "sources.list". APT prefers the first mentioned repository
> > automatically. We are working on a redesigned repository editor, but
> > that takes more than one hour of work.
> Sebastian,  the question is not about the editor. I can do that in vi 
> easily. But I have to edit my sources.list MANUALLY. Then, what is 
> gui-frontend for??? I usually add all new repositories to the end of the 
> file, and believe me - to click on radiobutton with correct version was 
> much simpler than to rearrange the address of repositories.

Editing a file one time seems a lot more time saving than forcing the
installation of a different version every time! 

I feel sorry, that the reworked repository editor is not yet finished.
But it will include a way of changing the priorities.

Forcing another version is a "hack" and not a full supported feature.

> > Secondly you should check out the menu item "Force Version..." in the
> > menu "Package" of version 0.52.
> Oh, yeah. I've noticed it. Main menu-->Package-->Force version, it opens 
> additional dialog window which contains ONE drop-down box and the OK 
> button! That is what you call easily accessible simple interface?
> For some reason I suggest that even to have that drop-down box on 
> "info"-panel would be more obvious.

We will add a shortcut for you. Should we remove all menus? Or what is
your point? The function is not and should not be used often, so there
is no need to put it on the main window.

> 3) Sometimes on my home machine I'm just browsing through "not 
> installed" expecting to find something interesting which I've missed 
> before. Obviously I again want it to be split into section, just because 
> there are section which I'm not interested at all. I believe that is 
> what the normal user usually would do.

On Debian we have got around 15000 packages. Browsing doesn't seem a
good way of accessing the archive. I want to promote and provide more
search functions (see previous mail on the list).


> 4) I dont know exact name of the package I need, but I remember that has 
> something to do with phyton. Before I was able to type "phyton-" in 
> search box and clicking "next" button few times, get to the searched 
> rpm. Now it is posible. Alphabet sorting is completely useless if you 
> have 4500 and more packages .
> The same is if accidentally user decides to look for some xmms plug in? 
> It was so simple, just type "xmms-" and here you are! And what we have 
> now instead?

Press "Ctrl+S" and you will get to the build-in search function of the
GTK treeview. The old search function was of "hack" quality (sorry
Michael :) and didn't provide a good feedback. We are facing problems
with a new implementation.

> Now that "properties" window which I can call via right-click. Right now 
> I'm working at 17" monitor. That additional window hides quarter of 
> initial synaptic window. If I click in a list of packages - main window 
> pops-up and covers Properties-window. It is just impossible to see them 
> both clearly in the same time!

Read the damn list and you will see that Michael already worked on a
patch.

> > Damn, you are slow. It took me an half hour to get to the current
> > design.
> you are damn fast! But that explains everything :)
> I'm kidding.

I just wanted to mention that we invested more than an hour into
synaptic. But you said that we should not talk no longer about this
issue.

> > I made a bunch of UI proposals - some can be found in the archives. Take
> > a look at the mails from November to spring. I feel very sorry that some
> > of the discussion have been on IRC and are not archived.
> Sebastian, I was completely satisfied with Synaptic before. And I feel 
> guilty for not coming here before, at least, to say "thanx". But every 
> next release of your project was better than the previous one and I was 
> sure you will keep the right way...

Others were not (including me).


>   Obviously I didn't suspect that you're gonna change the ui in so 
> radical way.

At first of all, synaptic is not my app. The main developers are Michael
and Gustavo, who is on vacation.

> 1)  As for me, to have two separate set of filters ([sections, alphabet] 
> and [new, upgradeable, installed, not installed... etc]) is a great 
> benefit because you can apply different filters  simultaneously and in 
> arbitrary combination. That makes the job of package management much 
> more convenient comfortable and fast.  (at least for me).
> 2) To keep those tabs means present very useful information about every 
> package in convenient, easily-accessible way. Personally I always want 
> to see:
> - description: just for case if i never saw that package before
> - dependencies, if half of them are in red, probably I won't try install 
> that package (now I have to wait until synaptix resolve all the 
> dependencies for me)
> - expert (that is how you call it in 0.48) - that is the third most 
> important thing
> 
> 3) keep search field with those two button (<first> and <next>). That 
> was extremely useful thing in former synaptic. That "find" button cannot 
> compensate the lack of search field.

Take a look at a previous mail related to search functions.

> I apologize man, but that argument is completely meaningless for me. All 
> the software that I like the most has highly configurable UI, including 
> all those detachable panels, movable buttons, docking windows, 
> statusbars etc... And any use which has at least some experience working 
> with that program can adjust the same state he is used to at any new 
> workplace. He just go directly to Preferences--> appearance/layout, or 
> right click on the toolbar --> customize. It takes not more than 2-3 
> minutes. 

You suggested to make two different layouts. Customization is a
different issue.

> If some user has problems at that stage - that is the problem 
> with his hands and it is better for him go back to windouze until it is 
> too late.

What is the argument? Should I say, go back to the command line and do
not bother me anymore? There are no second class users - beside that my
focus is on DPKG and not RPM. 

If you are on a personal crusade, that is fine. But I am not. So please
avoid telling me stuff about "windouze" or "uncle bill".

> > I also don't know why I should not also provide all features and
> > functions to a novice/normal user? Should he or she change to the other
> > layout only if or she wants to use one special function? How should a
> > user get known to the "advanced" functions if he or she never sees them?
> What are you talking about? That is exactly what you just did. You took 
> away the best features of ui and users which started with v 0.52 will 
> never know how good that software was before.

That is a pity. I am talking about the layout of the app.


> Of course you can provide all possible features by default, but that 
> comes in contradiction with you previous argument, namely "let's don't 
> frighten the Novice user with all that variety of buttons and tabs". So 
> as the user is getting more experience with Synaptic it starts to 
> explore it and discovers new useful features for himself, what's wrong 
> with that?

Nobody that this would be easy to achieve, but I think that we are doing
a good job. You wanted to hide all features completely in a different
layout. So you cannot just change your argument.

> And besides that, the case I've described is some quite abstract 
> situation, I didn't meet for a long time already. Your project is not 
> some kind of entertainment stuff (well, you know that better than I do) 
> that is the package manager. The utility which can be used by root only. 
> So it is expected that the user which has root access to machine,  at 
> least has some experience and knows what is he doing.

What is the argument? I know that synaptic is not an application
installer, but I don't know why we should exclude novice users? I use
synaptic and I wouldn't call me a novice.

> > But this has already been said before in previous discussions.
> so perhaps, our discussion is pointess... Such is life

Depends on you.

> By the way. One more question. I discovered new filter called 
> "obsolete" in v 0.52. However when I'm applying it marks as obsolete 
> half of software I'm using on a regular basis. Would you be so kind to 
> explain the principle how that filter make desididion about whis 
> software is obsoletted?

Take a look at the documentation. There is a section called "Filters".

Regards,

Sebastian