[Phpgroupware-developers] Re: Phpgroupware-developers digest, Vol 1 #161 - 13 msgs

[Dave Hall]

Hi all,

Sorry if I am a bit behind the discussion - I use digest mode, easier to 
read.  Before I continue I will flag the following - I post rarely and 
only when I feel strongly, I would like to call myself phpGW developer 
but I do not have a good enough knowledge to make such a claim.  The 
above said I will make the following comments. 

 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:02:04 +0200 (EET)
> From: Kai Hendry <address@hidden>
> To: address@hidden
> Subject: [Phpgroupware-developers] rant about themes
> Reply-To: address@hidden
> 
> 
> Just wanted to drop a message how I feel that all these themeing 
> and font
> stuff is a waste of time, effort and clogs up the code.
> 
> For example:
> 
> idsociety? WTF is that about? I need to edit the .gifs(why are you 
> using.gifs, don't they have a dodgy patent to it), however I do 
> not know the
> font I should be using.
> 
> On the subject of gifs, do we really really images at all? Can we 
> have an
> option of turning those damned things off. I think nice looking 
> "icons"can be made solely with CSS.

Gimme an example or 2 and I will consider it.  I am interested in how 
CSS can save bandwidth.  One point I will make is - an image (be it 
png/gif/jpeg/tngtig(the next great thing in graphics)) once it is used 
it is cached - in the proxy and locally - css can't do this - so the 
side bar in idsociety will save bandwidth over css 'icons'.
> 
> Choosing font in for e.g. the Notes app. What is the point?
> 
> Font tags, center tags, all this icky table attribs are HTML3. 
> Shouldn'tthe focus now be on HTML4 and CSS? Do not cite Netscape4. 
> Only weirdos use
> that damned browser. UPDATE. ;)

I used NC4.79 as it provides the best performance balance.  Some CSS, 
but fast.  Stable but some weirdo stuff.  At work (what pays the bills- 
but I don't work in the IT dept (but an IT role)) we have 600+ users on 
NC4.7X browsers.  What should i/we update to?  N6.x - W3C compliance but 
slow OR IE 5+ W3C incompliant, slow, unstable, proprietary code - shall 
I go on?

> Most users of groupware are used some boring look and feel. 
> Changing the
> themes colour to red or something just freaks ppl out imo.

@ work I am stuck with Novell GroupWise.  I wish I could change the 
color scheme.  My colleges would love to change the 'theme'

> 
> Also pages should be validating to W3C standards. It ensures that 
> peoplewrite good html. 

In principle, I agree.  At the same time, W3C standards are a bit behind 
the times.  The input tag 'maxlength' attribute is supported by IE 4+ & 
NC4+ (which you think is weirdo) but still is not in W3C standards.  
This allows some client side validation with out the form needing to be 
submitted.  This reduces server load and network traffic.  


>Having this in a footer for all apps would be a good start.
> 
>     <p>
>     Validate" 
> target="l">http://validator.w3.org/check/referer";>Validate HTML
>     Validate" target="l">http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-
> validator/check/referer">Validate CSS
>     </p>

IMHO the w3c validator is a b*t*h - it is very pedantic.  Also it does 
not support pages which a user must be authenticated - ie phpGW.

> 
> I hope I haven't come across as too much of an idiot. I will send 
> patchesto help with the transistion if you agree with me.

You did - At the same time don't get turned off phpGW, it will grow, 
thrive, and maybe even beat some player$ currently in the market.  I 
have an idea (which I have done some work on) for a phpGWcss 
utility/module which will allow for HTML formatting or CSS formatting.  
I use CSS for stuff I do now & have done recently - I must admit purely 
HTML formatting stikes me as a bit backwards.  I will discuss further 
with people who are interested.  

> 
> Regards
> -Kai Hendry
> 
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:12:19 -0800
> From: Patrick Walsh <address@hidden>
> To:
>  "address@hidden" <address@hidden>
> Subject: Re: [Phpgroupware-developers] Two Questions
> Reply-To: address@hidden
> 
> > 2)  How is the contact manager coming?
> 
>    There's a pretty good address book already in place.  The 
> Outlook killer, 
> CDB, is coming along very nicely.  I hope to have filtering 
> working soon, 
> which will lead to views and a UI and an alpha version.  The next 
> release 
> of phpgw (not this coming release) will likely include the first 
> edition of 
> CDB.

The sooner the better :)

> 
>    And on a related note, as soon as the alpha is out, I hope 
> that some of 
> the people who volunteered to help with the project will join 
> bjmorel and I 
> in enhancing the program and building add-on modules that expand 
> CDB into 
> the base contact manager for a larger CRM suite.

Sign me up.  I want to do a fair bit with the addressbook/cdb.  
Currently especially interested in writing conversion scripts.

> 
> ..Patrick (mr_e)
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:36:46 -0500
> To: address@hidden
> From: address@hidden (Andrew M Cohill)
> Subject: Re: [Phpgroupware-developers] rant about themes
> Reply-To: address@hidden
> 
> >
> >
> >Font tags, center tags, all this icky table attribs are HTML3. 
> Shouldn't>the focus now be on HTML4 and CSS? Do not cite 
> Netscape4. Only weirdos use
> >that damned browser. UPDATE. ;)
> 
> I ran an experiment trying to support about 100 people last fall 
> with 
> phpGW, and it was a disaster.  Let me tell you why.
> 
> These were "normal" folks--that is, they don't work in the IT 
> industry; they have lives and jobs, and typically would not view 
> downloading and trying out new browsers "fun."
> 
> Most of these folks were using older browsers that manifested the 
> "Cannot verify session" problem, although Netscape 6.2 has that as 
> well, even though Netscape 4.75 (Mac versions) does not.
> 
> NO ONE was willing to update or change their browser.  Not one 
> single 
> person.  They blamed the software, and did not regard the advice 
> to 
> change/update their browser as a) useful, or b) something they had 
> any intention of doing.
> 
> These folks were not "wierdos."  They represented a reasonable 
> cross 
> section of the other 95% of the people in the country (about 5% of 
> the country works in the IT industry).
> 
> Unfortunately,  despite requests on this list, I was unable to get 
> a 
> definitive answer on how to configure phpGW to avoid the session 
> error.  Most suggestions assumed I had complete control of the 
> server--I didn't and still don't--I'm using a hosting service, and 
> they are not willing to make a lot of special changes for one 
> customer and one piece of software.
> 
> If phpGW is going to break out of the limited market of tech-savvy 
> users and groups, it has to have better set up and configuration 
> instructions, especially to run it on  commercial hosting 
> services. 
> And it has to support a wider range of new AND old browsers (at 
> least 
> back to 4.x on both Mac and Windows).

Anderw the docs are lacking a bit, but the support is not.  The trick is 
to use non-cookie auth and make sure users are not running through an 
array of proxy servers.  I do believe the proxy issue does need some 
work - I am willing to contribute - although not that knowledgable on 
the topic

> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 00:59:15 +0100 (CET)
> From: <address@hidden>
> To: <address@hidden>
> Subject: Re: [Phpgroupware-developers] rant about themes
> Reply-To: address@hidden
> 
> 
> feel free to code your favorite layout! this kind of yelling is only
> poor, looking at all the people which *constructive* contribute to the
> project :)
> if you don't like what we are doing, why are you using it at all? 
> just go
> and get something else!
> i can't stand this behavour any longer
> 
> On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Kai Hendry wrote:
> 
> >
> > Just wanted to drop a message how I feel that all these themeing 
> and font
> > stuff is a waste of time, effort and clogs up the code.
> >
> > For example:
> >
> > idsociety? WTF is that about? I need to edit the .gifs(why are 
> you using
> > .gifs, don't they have a dodgy patent to it), however I do not 
> know the
> > font I should be using.
> >
> 
> i like that layout alot and always use it. and in case you didn't 
> notice:we are about to change the images to png
> 
> > On the subject of gifs, do we really really images at all? Can 
> we have an
> > option of turning those damned things off. I think nice looking 
> "icons"> can be made solely with CSS.
> >
> > Choosing font in for e.g. the Notes app. What is the point?
> >
> > Font tags, center tags, all this icky table attribs are HTML3. 
> Shouldn't> the focus now be on HTML4 and CSS? Do not cite 
> Netscape4. Only weirdos use
> > that damned browser. UPDATE. ;)
> >
> > Most users of groupware are used some boring look and feel. 
> Changing the
> > themes colour to red or something just freaks ppl out imo.
> >
> > Also pages should be validating to W3C standards. It ensures 
> that people
> > write good html. Having this in a footer for all apps would be a 
> good> start.
> >
> >      <p>
> >      Validate" 
> target="l">http://validator.w3.org/check/referer";>Validate HTML
> >      Validate" target="l">http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-
> validator/check/referer">Validate CSS
> >      </p>
> >
> > I hope I haven't come across as too much of an idiot.
> 
> you did :) imo
> 
> >  I will send patches to help with the transistion if you agree 
> with me.
> >
> ...
> 
> i installed phpgw in alot of companies, were it is used in production.
> the largest install is at my school with about 3000 users.... it works
> well, and also i didn't notice any users which were freaking out by
> changing the theme color...
> 
> ceb

Here Here - I agree wholeheartedly ceb :)

 
> Message: 11
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:49:08 -0600
> From: Miles Lott <address@hidden>
> To: address@hidden
> Subject: Re: [Phpgroupware-developers] rant about themes
> Reply-To: address@hidden
> 
> Kai Hendry wrote:
> > 
> > Just wanted to drop a message how I feel that all these themeing 
> and font
> > stuff is a waste of time, effort and clogs up the code.
> 
> We welcome your authoring of the braille theme.
> 
> > idsociety? WTF is that about? I need to edit the .gifs(why are 
> you using
> > .gifs, don't they have a dodgy patent to it), however I do not 
> know the
> > font I should be using.
> 
> The patent is officially dodgy, yet real.  Anyway, if you expect an
> image
> file to show differently than one at which you are looking, then you
> must
> edit it.  From what I know, this is true for all image formats.
> 
> > On the subject of gifs, do we really really images at all? Can 
> we have an
> > option of turning those damned things off. I think nice looking 
> "icons"> can be made solely with CSS.
> 
> I don't think nice looking icons can be made with css.  I reckon it
> depends on your definition of nice.  If you mean characters on a
> colored background, then I have to wonder did you really mean icons?
> 
> > Choosing font in for e.g. the Notes app. What is the point?
> 
> Its point is diminished by the fact that it is not consistent with 
> otherapps.  But, I guess someone asked for or wanted it.
> 
> > Font tags, center tags, all this icky table attribs are HTML3. 
> Shouldn't> the focus now be on HTML4 and CSS? Do not cite 
> Netscape4. Only weirdos use
> > that damned browser. UPDATE. ;)
> 
> No!  I am a weirdo who loves Netscape!  I even have a Netscape sticker
> on
> my car window!  My first child will be named Mozilla (after the 
> mascot,not
> the browser).

I hope your partner has the same viewpoint :)

> 
> > Most users of groupware are used some boring look and feel. 
> Changing the
> > themes colour to red or something just freaks ppl out imo.
> 
> Why would they do that if they know it will freak them out?  If 
> they do
> know and do it anyway, then I really don't think it is our problem.
> 
> > Also pages should be validating to W3C standards. It ensures 
> that people
> > write good html. Having this in a footer for all apps would be a 
> good> start.
> > 
> >      <p>
> >      Validate" 
> target="l">http://validator.w3.org/check/referer";>Validate HTML
> >      Validate" target="l">http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-
> validator/check/referer">Validate CSS
> >      </p>
> 
> A good start to annoy the crap out of people, imo.

I agree

> 
> > I hope I haven't come across as too much of an idiot. I will 
> send patches
> > to help with the transistion if you agree with me.
> 
> You scream too loudly.  Show us the code.  Be clear and have some
> respect
> for what IS there.  If what IS there is crap in your opinion, then
> please
> write something better.  As of today, it does not exist.

I usually keep my mouth/keyboard quiet for this very reason - you make 
noise you raise expectations.

Thanks for you time - I'll just go back to reading the digest

skwashd
Dave Hall

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