Re: [Pan-users] Pan needs some serious fixing

[Horacus Horacus]

> From: Charles Kerr <address@hidden>
> Reply-To: address@hidden
> To: address@hidden
> Subject: Re: [Pan-users] Pan needs some serious fixing
> Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:39:37 -0700
>
> (Christalmighty, what mailer are you using that has NO LINEFEEDS?)
>
> > However that spelling thingy did not work out for me.  In order to
> > install gtkspell, I needed Pspell, which was meanwhile superceeded
> > by Aspel.  So byinstalling Aspell, I did not satisfy the dependency,
> > Pan wouldn't start, complaining about missingpspell.so.2.
>
> That's because gtkspell needs pspell.
>
> pspell is a library wrapper library around aspell and ispell.
> It acts as a go-between for apps and ispell/aspell.
Dohh, how am I supposed to know that. I don't want to have to get a computer 
science degree just to install a spell checker.

> >> AFAIK you're the first person to ask for it.  Typically flagging is
> >> used for reading messages offline, and people saving binaries
> >> typically just hit "save".  I guess one could argue this would also
> >> be useful in offline reading of a.b.p.* groups, where the pictures
> >> are split into 2 posts.  I'll make "flag"multipart-savvy like "save"
> >> already is.
> >>
> >> <em> I won't have time for this until after the Followup-To bug is
> >>      fixed and 0.12.91 is out.  File a bug report for this at
> >>      bugzilla.gnome.org or the request will probably get lost. </em>
> >
> > Ok, now you struck a nerve. Call me a criminal,
>
> criminal. :)
>
> > but like a lot of people
> > out there, I download music and movies from the Usenet. Worst yet, I 
> don't
> > feel guilty about it at all, hehe. (hardened criminal?) Now, most of 
> those
> > movies are posted in 15Mb chunks, which are multipart. Pan only gets the
> > first part and ignores the rest. It may take a while to download 15Mb
> > chunk and if there is about 50 of them, which is typical for a CD size
> > post, it will be tedious to sit there and click save for every article.
>
> Why not just select all 50 multiparts and press "save"?
Because like I indicated before I don't necessarely want to save them, I 
just want to download them and then save them. I may not have enough disk 
space on the partition where I save stuff, and also I may be downloading 
from other groups meantime and want to schedule the download for later time.

> > I know I'll get into a big flaming mess, but I'll have to say this.
> > You being a developer of Pan, have you actually used Pan for anything
> > else but reading "news"?  Usenet these days is much more than just for
> > "reading articles".  Binary groups are probably the bulk of Usenet and
> > a newreader has to handle them to be of any use.
>
> Go download yEncs with tin, troll.
Yeah, that's a good solution, calling people trolls and driving them away.
> > As for filing a bug report, well, I'll try, but that bugzilla form
> > looked pretty scary, I'm not a programmer and don't know if I'll do
> > it right. But I'll try.  Although it's not realy a bug but a lack
> > of feature.
>
> How did you manage to get Linux installed on your computer?

Well, it wasn't easy, but I managed. No thanks to Linux though. Linux 
doesn't make it easy for newcomers. Like I said, I'm a stubborn s.o.b.
> > Ok, I retrieve headers, I'm in the tabbed window layout. I have my mouse
> > configured to select an article on mouse button one click. It highlites
> > the article in the headers list. The article is not downloaded yet.
> > I then click the article tab and am presented with a different
> > (already downloaded) article (previously viewed one).
> > What I should be getting is an empty window, since the article is not
> > downloaded yet, or Pan should go and get the article and display it
> > (depending how it's configured).  Getting a totaly different article 
> realy
> > throws me off and confuses me. It does work on double click though.
>
> Okay... you have Pan set to select, rather than activate, an article
> with a single-click... you single-click on an article, and Pan
> selects it...  what's the problem?
>
> It sounds like what Pan calls "select", you call "hilite", and what
> Pan calls "activate", you call "select".  Set Pan to activate on
> single-click and that should solve your problem.
No, I don't want to start downloading a 15Mb binary by clicking on a header. 
That's fine for reading small text posts but very anoying when browsing 
binary groups.
Yes, select/highlite and activate/download. But you're giving me a lame run 
around. The fact is Pan doesn't follow which message has a focus and doesn't 
track the header from the header tab to the message tab.
I've duplicated that over and over, so dont' be making excuses and telling 
me that I don't know what I'm doing in Pan.
> Your problem clicking on articles, anyway.
>
> >> Just an aside: maybe it's just me...  but starting off with "Pan needs
> >> somes erious fixing", and whining about "and this drove me back to
> >> Windows..." while complaining about Pan and KNode -- both of which
> >> are pretty good programs done on a volunteer basis -- makes you look
> >> petty.  You should try contributing some code, or putting money in
> >> the tip jar, or at a minimum train yourself to be civil in your
> >> bug reports.
>
> > You got it bud, I'm an ungratefull, loudmouth s.o.b who will bith, moan,
> > and whine when things don't go his way. LOL.  Don't feel singled out
> > though, just the other day I fired off a nasty email to the KDE dev team
>
> And you're proud of this?

I didn't say that. I mentioned that to make a point that I'm not singling 
out Pan. Every software has it's faults.
> > titled "KDE devs you suck!".
>
> No they don't.  Most KDE developers are pretty cool.

I know that.
> > I have outmost respect, gratitude and admiration for all developers
> > who work on software for Linux.
>
> Except, apparently, for the ones who suck.
Anybody who's been on the Internet for a while knows by now to take most of 
what people say online with a little grain of sault.
> > That said though, it doesn't mean I am going to deal with issues
> > concerning Linux in white gloves and dance carefully about everything
> > I want to communicate. If I think that something is not right I'll say
> > it outloud and wave my arms and kick the chairs around to make it count.
> > Hehe.Even if it makes me look bad.
>
> Then use another newsreader.  Your mails are going straight into
> my killfile, where Pan will never see them.
That's your choice. If you're going to be so sensitive you'll end up hating 
a whole lot of people soon since more and more people are trying out Linux 
and end up taking Pan for a test drive, and some no doubt (like myself) will 
want to send some feedback to the dev team.

> > I don't expect Pan to be of the same caliber as Agent which is
> > a commercial app but after following Pan for almost two years I find its
> > progress slow. specialy since it's the last application I need to 
> complete
> > my transition to Linux.
>
> SLOW!!!!
>
> Go to http://pan.rebelbase.com/download/releases/ and count the number
> of releases that have come out in the last two years.  Compare & constrast
> with the number of releases of ANY other newsreader in the same period.
>
> Then go look at the release announcements: these were not trivial releases.
>
> I have worked damn hard on Pan for at least two years,
> and you can go to Hell for all I care, troll.
I know there were a lot of releases, and I know you worked hard on it.
I'm not taking that away from you.
Like I said, I think you've done a great job considering it's volunteer 
project and such.
Even though I'm not a programmer I can somewhat comprehend the complexity of 
a program like Pan. I realize it's not a simple piece of software.
However, I can't help but questioning some of the design decisions.
Many of the basic usability features were not implemented until very recent 
versions. No online/offline one-button access, download activation on single 
click (I explained why it's anoyning before).No online/offline indicator 
anywhere on the interface.
Handling of groups with many headers caused frequent crashes of Pan (I 
remember that when I tried using Pan about 6 months ago)
And no toolbar! (until the last version).
In Agent I have my toolbar customized so I don't have to ever touch the 
menu. No one should be expected to remember key combinations for all the 
programs people use, that's why toolbars were invented.
These are basic usability features and should have been implemented from day 
one!
I was going to go slow with all the criticism but since you called me a 
troll and sent me to Hell then I might as well live up to your expectations 
and go out with guns blazing, hehe.
In conclusion, Pan is a perfect example of a software with great effort put 
into it but not enough thought devoted to design and end user ease of use.
Anyway, I suppose I burned all the bridges behind me so I will not bother 
this mailing list any more with my "trolling". I'll continue to test Pan and 
see if I can use it on everyday bases.
Good luck and keep up the good work. It is appreciated, even though my words 
may be interpreted otherwise.
> --
> cheers,
> Charles
>
> _______________________________________________
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> address@hidden
> http://mail.freesoftware.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/pan-users


cheers to you too

Horacus

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