job offers which are not

[Davi Leal]

Matt Lee wrote:
> Davi Leal wrote:
> > GNU Herds was not thought just as a place where ask for volunteers. It
> > was designed too to get full time jobs. That helps FS contributors and so
> > fit with the aims [1].
>
> Great. So, full time positions can afford to pay for a listing.

Matt Lee has contacted me via IRC to report that he (the FSF) has filled a job 
at GNU Herds [2].

  [2] http://gnuherds.org/offers?id=46

However such job offer is to look for a volunteer and though the Contract Type 
is set to "Indefinite" the offer shows that the Salary is _zero_ dollars.

I have exposed him GNU Herds is not to post jobs which pay nothing. I have 
directed him again to the GNU Herds Charter Aims section [1].

  "The aims of the Association shall be to assist and encourage people in
   their _paid_ work as Free Software authors, getting the highest levels
   of competence and efficiency."

  [1] http://gnuherds.org/charter


In the name of the Association aims [1] and to respect to the users we should 
not allow pass such job offer.

If the FSF wants to look for volunteers paying-nothing they can do it at 
Savannah [3] or at any other place for such purpose. Even gnuherds is looking 
for volunteers at Savannah.

  [3] http://savannah.nongnu.org/people/?category_id=1


It is obvious to me.  Therefore, if nobody disagree I will close such job 
offer [2] and I will report to Matt. Please, let me know any disagreement.



> > Nowadays "social network" is an overused term. Any web application which
> > allow users registration can be named as social network. The FSF listing
> > could be named as "social network" too.
>
> The FSF listing doesn't require or make use of any registration, so no,
> I don't think so.

Matt has told me that the FSF is now a "Trade union" [4] and they have 
specific rules about the jobs they post. Maybe related to the $250 they 
charge. GNU Herds will not have such problem due to it does not charge 
anything.

  [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union

The FSF is looking for developers, "On-line membership website
(Python/MySQL/Plone)", to improve its job listing and add similar
features to the ones GNU Herds has.



--
If you a bored and want to read the chat log, see below:

<mattl> ping
<davi> ack
<mattl> i've put up a job on gnuherds.
<mattl> we're looking for a volunteer.
<davi> it is not possible! great!
<mattl> what is not possible?
<davi> It is incredible! :)
<mattl> http://gnuherds.org/offers?id=46
<davi> I am looking at it
<davi> Can I help you about such offer?

<mattl> i just wanted you to make sure i'd done everything correctly.
<davi> well, first
<davi> gnuherds is not supposed to be used to post offers which pays
      just _zero_.
<davi> I as one of the gnuherds administrators should right now close
      your account at gnuherds
<davi> and close such offer too

<davi> You can not post a offer paying zero
<davi> Note the contract at payment form fields are required
<davi> They are required because >0 is required

<davi> Contract type :  Indefinite
<davi>   Will the FSF sign a contract with the selected guys?

<davi> Note the contract field is also required to fill a job offer
<davi> Note it read at the heading "job offer", not  "volunteer wanted"
<mattl> no, this is a volunteer position.
<mattl> why would you close my account?
<davi> Well that would be the usual case in which I do not
       know (neither talk) with the one who posted such offer.
<davi> If I would not know such guy I would have to close such
       account to avoid he/she post again another offer of such type.
<mattl> right. it seems like a valid use of the site. we're looking
       for volunteers, not employees to do some work on blue-gnu.biz
<mattl> i'm going to post a few more positions, including one paid job.
<davi> Please fill the paid job one
<davi> and let me think a little more 
<mattl> well, i'd rather you decided now.
<davi> If it is needed I will ask to the gnuherds-app-dev mailing
       list about this issue
<mattl> i'm not going to post the paid job if you're going to remove
       the volunteer positions.
<davi> mattl, Well, we allow you to post the volunteer positions if you
       post at least one paid job. Agree?
<davi> And we will close the "volunteer positions" offers when you
      close the "payed one"
<mattl> no.
<davi> Well, so following the policy exposed at the offer forms we will
       not allow the current one
<mattl> given that you currently have NO postings, except the one i
      just posted, i don't see anything bad about posting a mixture of
      volunteer and paid positions.
<mattl> we need volunteers all the time, often for other projects.

<davi> That is not what the gnuherds users expect: 

<davi> Aims
<davi> The aims of the Association shall be to assist and encourage people
       in their paid work as Free Software authors, getting the highest
       levels of competence and efficiency.
<davi> Ref.: http://gnuherds.org/charter

<mattl> if you guys came to us, looking for volunteers, we'd help you
      in the same way. gnuherds is useful to me for that.
<mattl> i'll remove the position then.
<mattl> that's a shame.
<davi> We could allow them if you post at least one
<davi> for payed work
<davi> but we would not like have one
<davi> for payed work (only 1 day)
<davi> and 10 for voluntary for 3 months, you know
<davi> Do you understand the position?
<mattl> sure.
<davi> so, agree?
<mattl> we're looking to hire someone, full time, for 3 years minimum.
<mattl> on $50,000 
<mattl> +\
<mattl> +
<davi> that is great!
<davi> ok, so post anything you want
<davi> thanks
<mattl> cool.
<mattl> thanks.
<davi> :)
<davi> np

<davi> I will help you in any way
<davi> A note:
<mattl> ok
<davi> The FSF logo is such actually? !
<davi>   http://gnuherds.org/offers?id=46
<davi> a little odd
<davi> !
<mattl> looks okay to me.
<davi> it looked too much short to me, anyway ...

<davi> mattl, So, if gnuherds will allow to post such type of
      offer (only to the FSF) we will have to add a new type of
      contract:  Contract type : none (volunteer)
<davi> what do you think about?
<mattl> that's a good idea.
<davi> ok
<mattl> https://gnuherds.org/offers?id=47 - i'd like to able to add
      a job title myself.
<mattl> for now, we can't post this paid job, because the title is
      not editable.
<davi> You can fill the skills, languages, etc. that the offers ask for
<mattl> also, we should be able to put a link to our existing job offer.
      filling out the form is very very tiresome, and it does strange
      things like creating new records for Apache, etc when it find that
      word in the line I pasted.
<davi> The offer title is not editable. It was one of the RMS requirements.

<davi> you should take the time to fill the offer. It is easy
<mattl> not really.
<davi> Just, edit, next, edit, next next
<davi> Let me help you
<mattl> the title of the job is 'Systems administrator' not 'Administrator,
      Systems, BIND, Perl, Python, Python, Subversion, DNS, FTP, FTP, DHCP,
      MySQL, PostgreSQL, Apache, Apache, English'
<mattl> The problem is that it is too rigid.
<mattl> here's what we want - http://www.fsf.org/news/sysadmin
<davi> That was thanks to the RMS feedback
<davi> IMHO it is not main the difference on title. 
<mattl> it has Python listed twice, and FTP is not exactly a big skill.
<davi> The title tries to help guess what is what is being looked for ...
<mattl> right, but it guessed wrong, so I need to correct it :)
<davi> You have filled  twice FTP and Python, you should remove one at
      the skills edit form
<davi> Let me know if I can help you
<mattl> I didn't though. I pasted "On-line membership website
      (Python/MySQL/Plone)" and "Free Software Directory
     (Python/Django/PostgreSQL)"
<davi> The webapp analyze what you write in the skills section
<davi> It split by skill
<mattl> right, i think that's not so helpful though.
<davi> We take note!
<davi> You should write:  website Python/MySQL/Plone    in one line
<mattl> the skills for the online membership tool are Plone + MySQL + Python.
<mattl> i did that.
<mattl> and it changed it.
<davi> ok
<mattl> hey, i'm your beta tester now ;)
<davi> yep :)
<mattl> so, some way to turn that feature off, also some way to edit
      the title, and a way to provide a free text field for jobs would
      be really handy. 
<mattl> if you can do those 3 things, i can accurately post this job.
<davi> The "free text field for jobs" will be priority one.
<mattl> so, just a text area that I can paste HTML, or Markdown into,
     instead of filling out all the fields. 
<davi> Edit title will not be possible at least for some time. IMHO it
     is a good feature.
<mattl> Most jobs are already written, and other job sites make it really
     easy to post a new one. If you can do this, more jobs will get posted.
<davi> You must fill the forms. After you understand as it work it is easy
<davi> We will fix the problems later
<mattl> No, the forms don't work with natural language.
<davi> You are right. They split and organize the information of offers
<mattl> I've removed the paid job for now, until these issues can be fixed.
<davi> I advice you you fill the forms. I will help you.
<davi> I do not understand why the title have to be exactly the same, etc.
<mattl> Because we're a union and we have specific rules about the jobs
        we post.
<davi> ah, I see. So I think you will not able to post it at gnuherds
<davi> What does 'union' mean in this context?
<mattl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union
<davi> well, I think we will have to postpone those offer posts
<davi> Let me consult to the gnuherds-app-dev mailing list
<mattl> ok