Re: Interactive guide for new users (was: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have)

[Ergus]

On September 12, 2020 8:02:55 AM GMT+02:00, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 21:48:52 +0200
>> From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
>> Cc: Gregory Heytings <ghe@sdf.org>, casouri@gmail.com,
>emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> 
>> >But if you think such "3-minute users" need a document to get them
>> >started, by all means, write such a document.  It is not what the
>> >tutorial attempts to do, though.
>> >
>> 
>> Lets say that the problem is the unfamiliar way how emacs work in
>some
>> aspects.
>
>Like what? please be more specific, otherwise it's very hard to
>understand what you have in mind.
>
Like right click panel and cua. I don't like any of those, but my point is that 
in 3 minutes is hard to face that none of them are there as expected.

>> In this list is repeated constantly that we shouldn't do this
>> or that; or use a such set of bindings, colors, or methods just
>because
>> the other editors do. So the only way to keep that is enforcing a
>> learning curve because very little users will arrive trained in "the
>> emacs way".
>
>Once again: most basic things people expect from an editor "just work"
>in Emacs OOTB.
>
>> If a user opens any editor around he never looks into the menus for
>copy
>> or paste, but just right-click and a panel or C-c and C-v as they are
>> standard anywhere else.
>
>So this is about CUA-like key bindings?

I just said explicitly that I don't like Cua mode. Even when M-w and the others 
are not really better IMO.

> or is there anything else?

The very usefull right click panel.

>
>> I don't like to enable CUA mode by default, but start emacs and work
>is
>> not so easy so if a user only have 3 minutes to start he will open
>> gedit, kwire, kate or geany and everything works as expected in those
>3
>> minutes.
>
>Fine, then I guess this is what the "3-minute tutorial" should say.
>
IMO we should focus in at least 5-10 minutes users more than 3 minutes ones. 
Because to focus in the 3 minutes ones emacs will require at least a permanent 
visible bindings bar somewhere (like nano) or change many things to make them 
familiar for external users. And we won't do that I think :/

>> >> You mention "doc strings", but why on earth would a user who just
>started
>> >> using Emacs read doc strings?
>> >
>> >To learn more about Emacs, of course.
>> >
>> 
>> I said that, 5-10 minutes is a bit better than 3. IMO the Mike's
>videos
>> are the perfect format. Maybe the only problem is the emacs window
>size
>> on the screen and that they are more oriented to the external
>packages
>> than in the internals.
>
>To have video tutorials for these purposes is perfectly okay.  I hope
>we will be able to have them soon.
>
>Thanks.

Have you seen any of the mike's videos? IMO they are already useful for new 
users. Let's hope he port them to peertube.
-- 
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