Re: Proposals for purposes and usage examples

[Eduardo Ochs]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2023 at 16:47, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> (...)


Hi Jean,

can Hyperbole be used to "automate" downloading a source package and
compiling it? You said in a previous e-mail that you found its docs
well written... if I remember correctly I found them so confusing that
it took me two evenings just to learn how to use the {...} buttons
that execute sequences of keys - so I know very little about
Hyperbole...

How would you translate this to Hyperbole? First run the script here
to make sure that you have a copy of the source code of that version
of Lua - it's just 200KB,

  (find-psne-links "http://www.lua.org/ftp/lua-5.1.5.tar.gz";)

and then run this second part with <f8>s:

• (eepitch-shell)
• (eepitch-kill)
• (eepitch-shell)
  rm -Rfv /tmp/lua-5.1.5/
  mkdir   /tmp/lua-5.1.5/
  tar  -C /tmp/ -xvzf $S/http/www.lua.org/ftp/lua-5.1.5.tar.gz
  cd      /tmp/lua-5.1.5/

  find * -name '*.[ch]' | sort > .files.ch
  etags $(<.files.ch)
  make linux test local 2>&1 | tee omltl
  ./bin/lua -e 'print(2+3)'

To be more precise: how would you use Hyperbole to "automate" that
second part?

Again: I know very little about Hyperbole. Basically, I know that rsw
repeats all the time that "Hyperbole keeps everything simple", but it
wasn't simple for me.


> I understand your reasoning for downloads, but that does not make it
> easier or more convenient. Internet is almost free in Europe, and
> difficult to access in the majority of planet Earth.
>
> I would say to always first use text, images, and then video.

I know that for most people in Uganda internet is very expensive, but
how is it for you?  I asked you to either watch the part of this one
that starts at 13:10 or to read its subtitles starting from 13:10...
that video is 19:21 long, and its .mp4 is 56MB...

  Info:  (find-1stclassvideo-links "eev2019")
  Play:  (find-eev2019video  "0:00")
         (find-eev2019video "13:10" "Demo: patching xpdf")
  LSubs: (find-1stclassvideolsubs "eev2019")
         (find-1stclassvideolsubs "eev2019" "13:10")
         (find-anggwget "SUBTITLES/emacsconf2019.lua")
         (find-anggwget "SUBTITLES/emacsconf2019.lua" "13:10")
     http://angg.twu.net/SUBTITLES/emacsconf2019.lua.html
     http://angg.twu.net/SUBTITLES/emacsconf2019.lua


> But never video without text first.

Some of the beginners that I convinced to try eev were students that
had (sort of) never seen a terminal in their lives. They had to start
with a video.


> I was the test person, I read that introduction and is not enough. I
> can't gain understanding.

Here it goes, in capitals:

  Then STOP TRYING
  TO UNDERSTAND IT
  BY READING!!!!!!

  TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT EEV IS
  BY READING ABOUT IT
  WILL BE A WASTE
  OF BOTH YOUR TIME
  AND MY TIME!!!!!!!!!!!

Either try more "Try it"s in the tutorial or watch the demo in my
presentation in the EmacsConf2019. Compare the situation with learning
what is a Turing machine in the early 80s versus playing a
coin-operated video games in the early 80s - Donkey Kong, say, or Qix.
It is VERY HARD to imagine that a video game can be fun, and how fun
it can be, by just learning what a Turing machine can do and trying to
imagine a video game, or by reading an _objective_ description of what
a video game _is_ or what a video game _does_.

The slides of my presentation at the EmacsConf 2019, that are in the
second link below,

  http://angg.twu.net/emacsconf2019.html
  http://angg.twu.net/LATEX/2019emacsconf.pdf

tell a bit of how discovering Emacs - and eval-last-sexp, of course -
was a visceral experience for me, very similar to how certain video
games, and some vinyls and CDs, were. The part of the video in which I
present those slides is more fun because I scream at some points, but
I think that you will prefer to just read the slides quickly.


> I understand it is for you. Though it is too general. Automating
> everything is good in general, but does not tell what eev does.

Then: eev doesn't do anything by itself. Emacs comes with C-x C-e,
i.e., eval-last-sexp, that is incredibly powerful, but that power is
not immediately obvious to everyone. Eev makes that power slightly
more accessible.

I've met at least two persons - my sister and one ex-internet friend -
who thought that a monochrome screen with an unfontified sexp was
something so repulsive that they couldn't stare at that for more than
a few seconds with complaining or running away. Eev is certainly not
for them - and so, by consequence, eev is not for everyone.


> Executable log -- I do not understand as there is no clear example.
>
> If it is log, there must be preceding action. Action example is not
> explained.

In the demo at the end of my presentation at the EmacsConf 2019 I did
not show how I "record" executable notes, only how I "play them back".
In the video below, that I subtitled just a few days ago, and that is
18:22 long and takes 56MB, I show almost in real time how I record
executable notes that are made only of elisp hyperlinks:

   Info:  (find-1stclassvideo-links "2021workshop3")
   Play:  (find-2021workshop3video "0:00")
          (find-2021workshop3video "4:56" "demo")
   LSubs: (find-1stclassvideolsubs  "2021workshop3")
          (find-1stclassvideolsubs  "2021workshop3" "4:56")
          (find-anggwget "SUBTITLES/2021-workshop-3.lua")
          (find-anggwget "SUBTITLES/2021-workshop-3.lua" "4:56")
      http://angg.twu.net/SUBTITLES/2021-workshop-3.lua.html
      http://angg.twu.net/SUBTITLES/2021-workshop-3.lua


> Is it right that action must precede the creation of log?

Yes. But I've learned how create logs almost in real time - this is
explained here:

  (find-here-links-intro "1. Alternating between \"task\" and \"notes\"")


> Exercise
> --------
>
> 1. Provide me three actions that you do
>
> 2. Show how is executable log created for those actions
>
> 3. Show how to execute the log and replay the actions

Start by the ones above - I need to know which ones are clear and
which ones are not before giving you more complex executable logs and
instructions in text...


  More soon,
    Eduardo