Re: Brutal review…

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

> Am 18.10.2023 um 14:43 schrieb Daniel Boyd <danieljboyd@icloud.com>:
> 
> The problem with a desktop environment metapackage is that gnustep is not a 
> desktop environment. Window Maker *uses* gnustep, but it is not gnustep 
> proper. In the same way that xfce uses gtk+. 

Yes, that is why I changed my mind to propose

- gnustep:      is a GUI development toolkit like gtk or qt
        it is a metapackage to pull in
        gnustep-base
        gnustep-hui
        gnustep-gcc
        gnustep-clang
        etc.
- gap:          a set of applications using the gnustep toolkit - one Debian 
package for each one
- gsde:         is a desktop environment using (i.e. making the package 
dependent on) gnustep like xfce is using gtk+.

Potentially it is possible to split then "gnustep" package into a runtime 
(meta) package that just loads compiled shared libraries and a "gnustep-dev" 
package that loads all the header files. And Debian source code packages... 
Then, "gsde" would only have to depend on "gnustep" and not on "gnustep-dev".

> 
> I think you need to strike a balance somehow. On one hand, we don’t want to 
> make it hard to discover gnustep apps. But on the other hand, I think it’s 
> important that we don’t add to the confusion about what gnustep actually is—a 
> framework upon which apps are built. Not the apps themselves. 

So IMHO there is no problem at all with this and no confusion, as long as 
"gnustep" and "gsde" and "gap" are separated. In mind and in package names.

My proposal would be to just start to work instead of debating what the "best" 
compromise is. It is not difficult or even challenging and then improve the 
structure after seeing how it works in practise and where the issues are. It is 
not a big deal to rename packages, modify package dependencies, descriptions 
and contents, as long as the debian package version numbers are correctly 
incremented.

I haven't followed all discussions but if there is someone who sets up a 
private debian repository for all gnustep related packages and maintains it, 
everyone could contribute. And it just needs an additional entry in 
/etc/apt/sources.list or a file in /etc/apt/sources.list.d

-- hns

> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 18, 2023, at 00:32, H. Nikolaus Schaller <hns@goldelico.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Well, on second thought it is a matter of definition.
>> 
>> There could be:
>> gsde    - as the GNUstep based desktop (equivalent to xfce4 for example)
>> gnustep    - as the full and complete development system (equivalent to 
>> Xcode)
>> gap        - the GNUstep applications
>> 
>> 
>>>> Am 18.10.2023 um 07:11 schrieb H. Nikolaus Schaller <hns@goldelico.com>:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Am 18.10.2023 um 00:15 schrieb Daniel Boyd <danieljboyd@icloud.com>:
>>>> 
>>>> Yeah you're right -- that was oversimplifying.
>>>> 
>>>> I think you need several metapackages
>>>> 
>>>> metapackages for running gnustep apps
>>>> gnustep -- synonym for gnustep-clang (at least I think that should be the 
>>>> default)
>>> 
>>> No, if you apt install lxde or xfce4 or mate or ... it is simply a 
>>> metapackage not for running apps but a full preconfigured desktop including 
>>> some default setup and apps like Terminal, web browser. That is the best 
>>> user experience.
>>> 
>>> So it should be a package that installs gnustep desktop eonvironment. I.e. 
>>> base, gui, gap apps, etc. which can be grouped in other metapackages (e.g. 
>>> gnustep-core, gnustep-gap)
>>> 
>>> And then there should be gnustep-dev for being able to develop packages. 
>>> Which will be best developer experience.
>>> 
>>>> gnustep-gcc
>>>> gnustep-clang
>>>> 
>>>> metapackages for developing gnustep apps
>>>> gnustep-dev (installs gnustep-clang-dev)
>>>> gnustep-gcc-dev
>>>> gnustep-clang-dev
>>>> 
>>>> And then that way if you're developing an app that requires libobjc2, you 
>>>> can just add gnustep-clang as a dependency. (I'm not sure gcc/clang is the 
>>>> best approach. objc1/objc2 might be better...? Regardless, I think you 
>>>> name it whatever would be most obvious to someone new to the project.)
>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 17, 2023, at 4:39 PM, Riccardo Mottola 
>>>>> <riccardo.mottola@libero.it> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Daniel Boyd wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Project goal should be for the instructions to get a working gnustep
>>>>>> environment (in Debian) to be as simple as:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> sudo apt install gnustep
>>>>> 
>>>>> that's oversimplifying, but something along a couple of virtual packages
>>>>> like "gnustep core" "gnustep development" "gnustep games" "gnustep net
>>>>> apps" (if we had more than gnumail...)could do.
>>>>> A "gnustep full" is a bit overkill, but for whom wants it would be also
>>>>> easy to do. I don't know how xfce or gnome do things nowadays, because I
>>>>> always go the "cherry-pick" route there too.
>>> 
>>> They do it all the overkill way :)
>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> These would just pull in the proper selection of packages which should
>>>>> be separately available. Not even that hard, even on debian. Debian has
>>>>> most stuff already, except some long-standing missing things.
>>>>> 
>>>>> With our private repo, even easier then. A thing to remember would be to
>>>>> make them incompatible with the offical debian packages or something
>>>>> similar, do be sure that they don't get mixed up.
>>> 
>>> It is easy to mix public and private repos.
>>> 
>>> Just my 2cts
>>> 
>>> -- hns
>>> 
>>