Re: [xougen] Any plans to keep up with Longhorn?

[Amaury Jacquot]

Herbert Snorrason wrote:
> Maurizio Colucci wrote:
>
> > I heard Longhorn is going to have vector graphics only, dropping 
> > bitmaps completely. I was wondering if you have any plans to 
> > counteract to (and possibly improve) those features.
>
>
> > To be precise, every graphic element (which means every widget, window 
> > frame, icon, text)
> >
> > 1. will be vector defined.
>
> This is part of the X protocol. I must admit to not being sufficiently
> familiar to answer. Depending on the particular instructions sent, it
> might require either a full protocol change, or it could be done very 
> easily. As Sun's NeWS seems to be lamented by many, I'll assume it's the 
> latter.

use Cairo for graphics

> > 2. will be rendered using the hardware primitives of the cards (3d 
> > cards are mandatory in Longhorn, except for palmtops I presume). That
> >  is, Longhorn will call the card's primitives to draw lines and 
> > texture-mapped poligons, no software blitter.
>
> Meaning a full reliance upon accelerated graphics functions. This would
> require the server to use vector graphics. It can be done; it can even
> be done in a way that might be portable to systems without the required
> hardware functions. But it will require the server to use vector
> graphics internally.

see above

> > 3. will support translucency (aka alpha-blending).
>
> This has been done in X servers already, notably in XDirectFB. The real
> question is this: Can the protocol plausibly do it?
> I think it can. Support for the alpha channel is always spoken of as a
> very real possibility.

see kdrive for this functionnality (which is implemented and works)
http://xserver.freedesktop.org

> > 4. will use z-buffering (don't ask me what for... futhermore 
> > translucency and z-buffers don't mix well AFAIK).
>
> Depth buffering and translucency don't mix? Why not? Unless I'm all the
> more mistaken, they are totally unrelated. (And it's very possible that
> I'm mistaken. I just wandered into this list by accident... ;)

done, see above

> > 5. will be dimensioned relative to the screen size, not to pixels, so
> >  as to be invariant of the screen resolution. So, when you increase 
> > the resolution, the bitmaps won't get smaller, and the lines will not
> >  become thinner.
>
> This comes for free with vector graphics.

this is widget library specific

> > 1. these features will become a must in order to compete with 
> > Longhorn. I can already hear Windows fans "linux has still bitmapped 
> > graphics" adding to the already known complains.
>
> Well, I don't think that would be accurate. It certainly is possible to
> layer a vector system on top of X, without requiring a major change. (It
> would, IMHO, be an ugly hack, but workable.) There is NeWS, which
> although not popular, predates Longhorn by well over a decade. (Is it
> approaching two?) And then there's always the counterargument that
> Microsoft's just copying Apple. *AGAIN*. (Both NeXT and Mac OS X have
> fully vector-based environments, in case you didn't know. Microsoft's
> not the first. This is no innovation.)

guess we're pretty darn close (see above)

> > 2. web browsers will HAVE to supply those features (translucency and 
> > vector graphics) in order to be XAML compliant.
>
> And they seem to have been quite able to already. The thing is; the
> browsers have their own rendering system: They can construct a bitmap
> and send it to the windowing system. Lack of support for these features
> in X itself has no real effect on browsers.
>
> > 3. It seems to me that these features must be designed into the 
> > architecture right from the start. For example, a dependency on openGL 
> > seems mandatory.
>
> And Xouvert is not a new design. It is, for better or for worse, X11R6.
> Why would a dependency on OGL be mandatory?
>
> > The KDE developers said it is not up to them, and that little is 
> > possible unless the X server supports those features.
>
> Possible? yes. Ugly hack? Yes. Would it be better to have support in X?
> Yes. Is Xouvert going to implement that support? I certainly hope so. ;)
>
> Odin -- Someone who really shouldn't be here...