Re: [Phpgroupware-users] phpgw v egw

[Chris Weiss]

Matt, before you press delete, please read this through.  I feel
you've jumped to some unfair conclusions based on the bad habits of
one or two people.


On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:04:00 -0000, Matt <address@hidden> wrote:
> Before this goes any further: I have to say, as a new face that tried both
> that truly they both stink!  A monkey hitting keys at random could have
> stitched that lot together better.

I agree fully with the inter project bickering being out of line, but
please hold off on the lies and exagerations.  This being an open
project without any full time paid developers means that "guess who"
is needed to make it great.... go on, guess.  (I'll give a hint,
you're one of them, and by "you" I mean everyone reading this list)

> 
> They is no proper documentation, no specified standards just bad and very
> bad hacks.

imap, pop3, ical, vcal, vcard, webdav, xmlrpc, soap... these aren't
standards?  phpgroupware supports all.  I'm not an expert in each, but
I since they do operate with 3rd party services I don't see how they
are such hacks.  However, docs are lacking as are in many pre-1.0
applications.  Feel free to contribute. (this is another hint)

> 
> The UI in all cases needs work.

we have several different templates available, feel free to submit
your own template that has a "proper ui". (oh look, another hint)

> 
> The error handling is a waste of time and 99% of the upload time was spent
> uploading junk that does nothing.

exaggeration doesn't help your case.  I do realize the amount of
images and apps that won't be used can feel like a waste of time to
upload.  If you'd like, drop in IRC and round up some folks to make a
little howto to put on wiki.phpgroupware.org on how to trim it down. 
(i'm seeing a trend here)

> 
> The back end of both is in dire need of a kick and if the best you children
> can do by way of development is insult each other on my time I'm going to
> save me a hell of a lot of HDD space and time and purge that bleeding lot.

The back end of both do still share some code.  Yes, the code needs a
ground up rewrite.  We are in the middle of it, but since groupware is
complex it takes time to do it right.  Check out the proposal-branch 
in cvs, feel free to contribute.  (starting to feel redunant)

> 
> Neither group has anything to brag about and, to be honest, I'd be too
> ashamed to even promote the code yet.
> 
> Have none of you heard of modular design or did you just egotistically think
> that it was for "those losers who write the great code"!

there is nothing in the core apps that isn't a class, and reusable
(i've reused some of it outside of phpgw before).  It's also 3-tier
designed, with storage, business rules, and UI all in separate
objects.  This allows xmlrpc and soap to work with little additional
code.  You'll notice I said CORE apps, admin, prefs, calendar,
addressbook, todo, notes, email.  everything else is 3rd party that we
include as a convenience and do little to control the design.

> Now I may be stuck putting up with this crud you guys are fighting over for
> now but I am aware that the Open Source initiative is known to Windows ASP
> programmers as well and I wonder who's code might win then?  My windows
> using staff point out such projects as these as why I should get rid of the
> *nix stuff.

care to share?  a target often makes things go faster.  (do I dare say it?)


> Somebody needs to bang your heads together with large mallets and tell you
> to sort it out.  Team up or go your separate ways but stop bugging me
> because your code does that already!

here here.  (yes, I've come to the conclusion that the legacy code we
have is past its time.  Lets move on to nextgen.)


so, did you guess who makes a project structured like this good or
bad?  yes, it's users and site admins and the random guy who is
willing to learn some php in order to have an open groupware solution.
 That would be.. Y O U.

So the bottom line is, if you don't like what you see, tell us whats
better, but "equal" (eg. open sourced/freely available) and we'll
consider it.  Or just make your own groupware suite and show us up. 
Either way, the world will be a better place for it.

Thanks for getting this far.