Re: Add Code of Conduct (issue 575620043 by address@hidden)

[Janek Warchoł]

I'll try to speak only on the most pressing points to avoid bloating the
discussion unnecessarily.

śr., 5 lut 2020 o 14:41 David Kastrup <address@hidden> napisał(a):

> Janek Warchoł <address@hidden> writes:
> > In short, it's been found (I think Mike will be able to give you specific
> > examples) that having code of conduct encourages contributions from
> > newcomers.
>
> I rather think that a friendly atmosphere encourages contributions from
> newcomers.  Whether an upfront requirement to commit to a set of rules
> with an enforcement team is perceived as a guarantee of a friendly
> atmosphere is debatable. [...]
> the principal impact [of Code of Conduct] to be expected on
> LilyPond development appears to have an official body entitled to
> censure my behavior and eventually, out of a sense of duty, remove me.
>

Do you think that approaching other people with suspicion like this (i.e.
expecting they have worst intentions, which is getting close to a
conspiracy theory) contributes to a friendly atmosphere? I don't think so.

And honestly, I'm very sorry to read something like this from you. It made
me regret coming back to the project, and almost made me want to resign
again.


śr., 5 lut 2020 o 23:05 David Kastrup <address@hidden> napisał(a):

> Urs Liska <address@hidden> writes:
> > Now that you say it I recall what triggered my comment in the first
> > place (I got distracted while writing and was somewhat confused
> > afterwards).
> >
> > Indeed it was the kind of unpleasant discussion about proposed changes
> > (I don't recall whether it was lilypond-devel threads or actual
> > patches, probably the former) that was the driving force. In a nutshell
> > my requests or suggestions were furiously fenced off as simply enabling
> > "single-person use cases".
>
> Uh, this was not intended as a "fence off" as much as that I considered
> extensions of that scope and direction not a good fit for putting in the
> core.
>

I know it's difficult for you, but please try to see the emotions here.
Simply notice that there is a very active contributor, to whom LilyPond as
a projects owes very much (especially when it comes to being known in
academic circles), who helped people on the lists numerous time, and this
contributor is sad and frustrated about his contributing experience.
Please, don't argue - just acknowledge the fact and try to show others that
you've acknowledged it.


śr., 5 lut 2020 o 21:47 Carl Sorensen <address@hidden> napisał(a):

> In your writing I sense that you have some troubles with the LilyPond
> community to which I am oblivious.  It’s not uncommon that I would be
> oblivious to such troubles.  I’d like to know more about them.
>
> [...]
>
> On the other hand, it’s not unlikely that there are problems in the
> LilyPond community that I have not noticed, and that adopting a Code of
> Conduct might draw previous contributors who noticed problems back in to
> the LilyPond community.
>
>
>
> I need to understand the problem before I’m going to be in favor of a
> change.  I’d love to be educated (this is a serious statement) about the
> problems that I haven’t noticed.
>

Carl,
thank you for being open to listening! I'll try to give examples.

I stopped contributing to LilyPond about 6 years ago. One cause of that
change was that I got a job and suddenly had much less time. But it was not
the only cause; it would have been possible for me to contribute at least a
little. The reason I did not was that participating in the development had
been too emotionally draining to endure. In my experience LilyPond has
(used to have?) huge inertia (disproportionate to the size of the project).
I mean (more or less, please consider this to be an approximation) that
when I tried doing things that didn't clearly align with the views of a
person with most authority (for the last few years David has been this
person) I had felt *unwelcome* and my personal impression was that they
were "blocked". It was very difficult to get some things done.

What Urs wrote is a very good example: even though David didn't mean to
block Urs's suggestions, that was the impression we (Urs and me) got back
then. Fortunately for LilyPond, Urs decided to start OpenLilyLib. However
in my case the result was that I ceased to contribute. I think there were
more people like me.

Another example is this very thread. See what happened here. It started
with excellent, 100% on-topic questions from Karlin High, and with very
appropriate and justified objections from Jonas Hahnfeld. However, right
after that the discussion became dominated by David, who started writing
multiple long emails, which partly consisted of merit-based question,
partly of his predictions "what will happen if" (which can be useful, but
only to certain extent) and partly of suspicions of something close to a
conspiracy theory.

Since David has more time available that many of us (who have a
non-LilyPond job), and apparently limiting email volume is not a high
priority for him, it's hard to keep up with the discussion. David produces
more arguments, claims and/or suspicions that any of us can reply to in the
time we have. If this was a code patch, the result would be that either a)
I would have to spend countless hours addressing his concerns rather than
actually implementing a solution or b) if I tried to ignore the ones that,
according to my best knowledge, were insignificant, David would object and
probably reject the patch.

It's similar with other initiatives. My impression of LilyPond community is
that the decisions are "made" on the basis of who writes the longest / the
most emails. This person is David, and he's unbeatable at that. But there
is only one David (well, one David K), and if he spends all his time
writing emails, he won't have much time left for writing code - while
people who think differently won't be able to get through because they
don't have so much time for writing emails. That is, in my opinion, one of
the major reasons for development slowdown, and contributor frustration
(apart from the fact that the process is complicated).

śr., 5 lut 2020 o 21:47 Carl Sorensen <address@hidden> napisał(a):

> Mike, do you have any specific occurrences that caused you or others to
> stop participating in LilyPond development, and that you feel would be
> resolved (or resolvable) by adopting a code of conduct?  I’d be very
> interested in hearing them (preferably on the list, if you’re comfortable
> sharing them; or in private, if you’re not).
>
> [...]
>
> I think it very unlikely that implementing a Code of Conduct would draw
> large numbers of new contributors to the project.  I can’t imagine that
> there are large numbers of people running around saying “I’m looking for a
> project with a code of conduct to contribute to.”
> [...]
>

Actually, you made me realize that the main problem we have may not be best
solved by a Code of Conduct (it's not to say that it would be useless, but
perhaps there is something more valuable we can do). I'm not yet sure what
it is, but I'll think.

Good night!
Janek

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