|
| From: | Patrick CLOAREC |
| Subject: | Re: Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 9 |
| Date: | Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:09:32 +0100 |
| User-agent: | Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.6.1 |
Hello Peter,
Hello all.
Now, I'm going to ask a serious question.Have you thought about all the ramifications and effects of "being just like ISE"?
I don't intend to be just like ISE. Actually, by "interoperability" I mean at least "share the same language definition", even with addition. A compiler with language extension is not the same at all than a compiler for a different language.
I would not try to follow ISE in all its tools, to ensure a full
project file interoperability. If possible, why not, but that's a
different job. I don't focus on running directly ace or ECF, or
any other development tool.
"Interoperability" was an original (1990's) Eiffel principle/goal/dream.But not a 21st century position at all - at least not from the dominant commercial vendor. No, no, no - very very far from it. And while that makes sense from a business perspective, competition is usually a good thing.
I worked of years on embedded SW, and one of our first concern
was the C compiler deviations form standard. Actually, there
exists standard (such as MISRA) that defines tons of rules to
ensure portability between compilers and libraries. One of the
first rule is : "define and use only a subset of the C standard,
so you will avoid incompatibility between compilers that comply
with the C standard". Wow.. That is something I would like to
avoid with Eiffel
In full disclosure, the reason I stopped using Gobo Eiffel was that it began to be "just like ISE". It does not compete, it just provides unpaid support. While I think Eric has always done a great job, I just don't agree with the direction of the last many several years, and taking Liberty Eiffel in the same direction - well, you can see where I'm going here.
I could not blame Eric and gobosoft contributors for not having built something better than ISE. Gobo is different from ISE while being compatible, that's a very good thing. I don't like the idea of "all development environments do the same things in the same way", but I don't like the idea of "2 compilers = 2 languages".
True, but, in my opinion, the SmartEiffel community shrunk drastically with the concept of "True Eiffel", which sounded (at least to me) a bit like "we are the true believers".
So Liberty Eiffel has been my go to Eiffel compiler in recent years. Not that I use it a lot. Viva la difference! I'm mostly on linux, so gnu is my main compiler set.
The Eiffel community shrunk drastically when "standard" Eiffel was created.
please don't use rude words :-)
Sometimes, when you get lost the best thing to do is go back to the last place where you knew where you were (if you can).
So I put it to you that if you want to pursue "interoperability", you should do it with something like Rust, Scala or [sacrilege] C++23.
I agree, and I'm totally open to discussion.
Finding a common direction to row in is important for the Liberty Eiffel group if it wants to be active.
It's just a small fish in a small pond. Do you want to escape to the ocean? or join a larger fish in another small pond? or play with sharks? or just safely build the pond a little larger? It's also important to have a unique direction.
My point of view is :
What is the cost of having and keeping a compiler compatible (at
language level) with ISE ? or even just ECMA-compliant ? (I don't
like the ECMA document, by the way)
if that's a doable job, let's do it, so we will have a clear
basis for further developments, while keeping a language-level
compatibility within the three compilers. By "development", I mean
optimization, new tools or language extensions
However, that's just my 20 cents worth (adjusted for inflation).
On Friday, 18 February 2022, 03:03:40 am AEST, liberty-eiffel-request@gnu.org <liberty-eiffel-request@gnu.org> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 8 (Hans Zwakenberg)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 18:26:38 +0100 (CET)
From: Hans Zwakenberg <hz@ocean-consulting.de>
Subject: Re: Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 8
Message-ID: <1629935351.23456.1645032398447@ox.hosteurope.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">1629935351.23456.1645032398447@ox.hosteurope.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Welcome Patrick, soyez bienvenue !
Very cool to see new faces around here :)
Cordialement
Hans
> liberty-eiffel-request@gnu.org hat am 16.02.2022 18:00 geschrieben:
>
>
> Send Liberty-eiffel mailing list submissions to
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Liberty-eiffel digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. one more on board (Patrick CLOAREC)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 07:46:03 +0100
> From: Patrick CLOAREC <patrick.cloarec@laposte.net>
> To: liberty-eiffel@gnu.org
> Subject: one more on board
> Message-ID: <ba60695d-2372-6a18-505a-9d070b78e9c5@laposte.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">ba60695d-2372-6a18-505a-9d070b78e9c5@laposte.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm a software engineer. I closely followed the development of
> Smalleiffel at the end of the 90's but never contributed to it.
>
> Now, I'd like to be involved in LibertyEiffel, as well as Gobo.
>
> I have a strong professional background in C (not by choice, actually),
> I have used many languages, mainly Eiffel, Erlang, C, C++, Java and
> assemblers, for 30 years, but I definitely consider Eiffel as the best
> designed language by far.
>
> I have rediscovered Liberty Eiffel last week, and I'm really happy to
> see it as an active project again.
>
> I think that the priority is the one Eric Bezault has pointed out :
> interoperability between ISE, Gobo and Liberty.
>
> I'd be really glad to contribute to Gobo's and Liberty Eiffel's next
> developments !
>
> Patrick CLOAREC
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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> End of Liberty-eiffel Digest, Vol 53, Issue 8
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