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Re: Reply to list [was: Different key maps in different dired buffers]


From: Bob Proulx
Subject: Re: Reply to list [was: Different key maps in different dired buffers]
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 13:41:01 -0600
User-agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30)

Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
> Emanuel Berg writes:
> > If we had software for such forums - I don't know if we do? - it
> > would be a good thing if that software included an interface to
> > the traffic here - i.e., yet another gateway!
> 
> Gmane actually *does* allow posting trough a web interface.  However, I
> doubt that anyone uses it — it’s pretty ugly, imho, and requires solving
> a captcha.

Really?  I thought most people that used Gmane used it for posting
through their interface.  No?  I guess it is really hard to tell by
anyone outside of Gmane.  But I thought that was one of the advantages
of using it.  That one need not have any other connection.

Plus I know that during the recent network connection problems to the
Boston datacenter site that much mail from Gmane was backlogged unable
to transmit messages.  All of those came through Gmane so there are at
least some users using it.

> By the way, so far as we are discussing techniques of using mailing
> lists, let me turn your attention, that your messages are systematically
> appear in ‘gmane.emacs.help’ as replies to non-existent messages, thus
> breaking the tree.  That might be some bug of Gmane, of course, however
> the archive of GNU Mailman [0] shares this views.
> 
> [0] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2016-06/threads.html

Yes.  I have tried to determine why this is before.  I don't think it
is on Emanuel's end.  It appears with other posters too.  Emanual is
just one of the more prolific posters and so we see it more often with
his posts.  :-)

Plus when the messages do thread they thread to the parent of the
message and not the message being responded to.  And of course the
unusual software in the path is Gnus, News, the news2mail gateway, any
of the three of which could be causing problems.  I think it is the
Stanford newsgroup gateway causing the problem.

Details follow for those who want to skip now.

Here was my message:

  From: Bob Proulx <address@hidden>
  References: <address@hidden>
          <address@hidden>
          <address@hidden>
          <address@hidden>
          <address@hidden> <address@hidden>
          <address@hidden> <address@hidden>
          <address@hidden>
          <address@hidden>
  In-Reply-To: <address@hidden>
  Message-ID: <address@hidden>

And here was the follow-up message:

  From: Emanuel Berg <address@hidden>
  Path: 
usenet.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed9.news.xs4all.nl!feeder1.xsusenet.com!nntpspool.opticnetworks.net!nntpspool01.opticnetworks.net!aioe.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
  Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help
  Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
  Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:217984
  User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4 (gnu/linux)
  References: <address@hidden>
          <address@hidden>
          <address@hidden>
          <address@hidden>
          <address@hidden> <address@hidden>
          <address@hidden> <address@hidden>
          <address@hidden>
          <address@hidden>
          <address@hidden>
  Message-ID: <address@hidden>

There is no In-Reply-To on the follow-up.  Only the References header
can be used for threading.  Checking through the references in the
place of my message address@hidden I see
address@hidden instead.  That
appears to be the point where threading gets broken.  Something
appears to have converted one message id into another one.

But this isn't only Emanuel.  Here is another example of the same
which has neither Emanuel nor myself in the conversation.

  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2016-06/threads.html#00084

The original posting has:

  From: "Tory S. Anderson" <address@hidden>
  Message-ID: <address@hidden>

The follow-up with the broken threading has:

  From: Marco Wahl <address@hidden>
  Path: 
usenet.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed8.news.xs4all.nl!feeder.erje.net!1.eu.feeder.erje.net!weretis.net!feeder4.news.weretis.net!news.mixmin.net!aioe.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
  Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help
  Message-ID: <address@hidden>
  References: <address@hidden>
  NNTP-Posting-Host: ghePZ09roGjaAbQfu6+I9w.user.gioia.aioe.org
  User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (gnu/linux)
  Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:217524
  References: <address@hidden>

Same thing.  The missing message-id has been replaced with a
non-matching one.

In these messages I see two things in common.  One is that both came
through the news gateway.  Another is that both users posted using
Gnus.  Can we find an example that is broken that only uses one of
them to eliminate the other as a problem?  At this moment I suspect
the gateway.  But that is always my suspicion bias since it is outside
of our control.

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen has several in this thread.  But my mail was
in there too and I am looking for something without.

  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2016-05/threads.html#00092

Here is one.

  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2016-04/msg00019.html

Original:

  From: Shiyao Ma <address@hidden>
  Message-ID: <address@hidden>

Follow-up:

  From: "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <address@hidden>
  Path: 
usenet.stanford.edu!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
  Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help
  User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux)
  Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:217422

Again Gnus and News.  Can't tell.

Ah!  Here is one.  Another example of a broken mail link.

  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2016-02/threads.html#00390

Original:

  From: Eli Zaretskii <address@hidden>
  Message-Id: <address@hidden>
  References: <address@hidden>

Follow-up:

  From: Vladimir Panteleev <address@hidden>
  Message-ID: <address@hidden>
  Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:217048
  References: <address@hidden>
          <address@hidden>
  In-Reply-To: <address@hidden>
  User-Agent: G2/1.0

What User-Agent is represented by "G2/1.0"?  Since that isn't Gnus it
would seem to let Gnus off the hook.  The commonality is the Stanford
news gateway.  The converted message id is of the same form.  Looks to
be the same problem.  Does not include Gnus so seems to implicate the
Stanford newsgroup gateway.

Bob



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