Re: gnus, thunderbird and imap

[ken]

On 12/28/2010 10:57 AM Richard Riley wrote:
> ken <gebser@mousecar.com> writes:
> 
>> On 12/27/2010 10:44 AM Richard Riley wrote:
>>> ken <gebser@mousecar.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 12/27/2010 03:12 AM Richard Riley wrote:
>>>>> Rud1ger Sch1erz <nospam_tigre@yahoo.es> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tyler Smith <tyler.smith@eku.edu> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indicate that I need to set up a local IMAP server to get gnus working.
>>>>>> Why that? I use gnus just with my IMAP account at gmx, concurrently with
>>>>>> thunderbird, which I sometimes use from a different machine where no
>>>>>> gnus is installed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Rudiger
>>>>>>
>>>>> Its a lot faster and you get nnir indexed searching as well as a
>>>>> local copy of all your mail and the overhead is very low.
>>>> For years I've been using IMAPS without a local server and the speed is
>>>> fine... anything "faster" than  my remote connection-- such as a local
>>>> server-- wouldn't be noticeable.  Moreover, using the remote server
>>>> (my
>>> Possibly for you. Gnus IMAP performance was dismal until recently for
>>> many. (NoGnus is a LOT better).
>> Read again.  I wasn't comparing thunderbird to gnus.  To repeat what I
> 
> No, you werent even saying anything about Gnus other than that its hard
> to configure and Thunderbird is better (in your view)t. I was explaining
> how to get a fast Gnus with IMAP and you just seemed to want to say Gnus
> is rubbish compared to Thunderbird. For you use case possibly it is. But
> the Qs were about Emacs mail clients.
> 
>> said in another way: Even if thunderbird was faster, I wouldn't really
>> notice the difference because it's virtually instantaneous now.  I
>> click
> 
> We were talking about Gnus.

Look at the Subject line (which I didn't create).


> 
>> on a message I want to read and it appears.  Same when I delete a
>> message... I hit the Delete key or click on Delete and the message is
>> gone-- immediately.  Efforts at increasing speed eventually yield
>> diminishing returns.
> 
> I'm not sure of the relevance. We were talking about Gnus.
> 
>> Can NoGnus multitask... perform more than one email client operation at
>> a time?  Back when I used it, gnus couldn't.  Really disappointing.
> 
> When did multitasking etc even come into it? This wasnt a discussion
> comparing Thunderbird to Gnus. If you like Thunderbird then fine : it's
> a nice easy to use client.

Multitasking bears considerable relevance to performance.  From
<http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GettingMail>:

"Note: The whole Emacs process is blocked during mail retrieval if Emacs
does it itself. So if you are downloading large mails and tend to use
Emacs for almost everything, you lose the multitasking features of your
environment."

Back when I used gnus this was a significant pain as it happened often
and for considerable length of time... often several seconds, sometimes
longer.


> 
> FWIW, using the setup I mentioned everything is instant. Along with the
> benefits I already outlined. Not least of which it is hosted by Emacs.
> 
>>>> ISP's) allows me to access my email from anywhere in the world where I
>>>> can get an internet connection.  Yes, I could do that with a local IMAPS
>>>> server... and of course secured and firewalled it... and put those
>>>> machines on a UPS and performed regular backups.  But why go through all
>>>> that when the ISP (or other organization) does it for free?
>>> So you can access email offline too? have local indexing? As for all the
>>> firewalling etc, erm, are you not over complicating it a little. Simply
>>> dont provide any external login. Or do. For you.
>> I'm always connected, so for me there's no such thing as "offline" and
>> so no need to access email at a non-existent moment.  Yes, tbird has
> 
> Thats nice. But I was replying to the OP. Him and I and others are not
> always on line I'll bet. For many people there is such a thing as
> offline. Particularly on laptops. And thats another nice feature of Gnus
> and a local imap server. All your mail is there and instant AND if you
> use the Gnus Agent all your nntp news too.

I guess I thought you knew more about thunderbird than you do... that
you already it works offline just fine.  (It does.)  You don't seem to
know much about it as I was assuming you did.


> 
>> 13x3x2 indexing built in, selectable with a few mouse clicks (or key
>> chords, if that's preferred).  In addition, Thunderbird has lots of ways
>> to automatically filter, flag, and colorize mail, automatically mark or
>> colorize mail or move it from any place/folder/account to any other, all
>> easily configurable how the user wants.  All really sweet additions to
>> indexing.  And I don't need to have local copies of any mail to do
>> indexing or all these other functions (though they'd all work exactly
>> the same if I was using a local server).
>>
>> I guess you could say it's a choice whether to have a firewall or not.
>> If you believe a password is sufficient security for your system(s),
>> good luck with that.  But you might want to have a look at the
>> latest/recent CERT announcement; there's a pretty wicked vulnerability
>> in SSL.  And it's probably not going to be the last one.  So, for me
>> anyway, hardening and firewalling systems perpetually connected to the
>> internet and taking other measures previously mentioned to maintain
>> functionality aren't "over complicating".  Indeed they're routine in the
>> enterprise and other places where security matters.
> 
> You are aware you dont have to open your local dovecot server to anyone
> aren't you?

You speak as if it's nothing more than a matter of wishing.  If I'm on
the road and the server is at home, then to get my mail I have to
connect to the server over the internet.  Or if I run the server on my
laptop, still, it must be connected to the internet.  Either way, this
means that the server must be connected to the internet.  This means
it's exposed.  Again, in this scenario just a password is not sufficient
security.


> 
>>>> The OP just wants to use emacs to get mail from a remote IMAP(S) server.
>>>>  Why turn it into a project?  It should take ten minutes, tops, to set
>>> Should? This is Emacs and Gnus ..
>> Which is my point.
>>
>>>> that up... that's all it takes if you use thunderbird for your email
>>> Thunderbird isn't Gnus.
>> True that.
>>
>>>> client.  Hopefully, setting up multiple IMAP(S) accounts in emacs will
>>> Gnus is never a 10 minute tops. My suggestions were merely to inform :
>>> not to complicate. 
>> Well, good, that wasn't your intention.
>>
>>> There is currently an initiative going on in no Gnus
>>> to provide simpler set up. Something with the power of Gnus will always
>>> be more complicated with such a simple entry level reader/client as
>>> Thunderbird.
>> Simple?  Entry level?  I've used at least a dozen different email
>> clients over the years (including gnus) and haven't found one better
>> than-- or even as good as-- thunderbird.  What specific features or
>> capabilities would you imagine should be added to thunderbird?
> 
> 
> That fact you ask that means you dont know Gnus.

Wow!  I asked a completely reasonable question (in response to your
inaccurate assessments).  There's no reason for you to go ad hominem.
If you don't have an answer, that's fine.


> 
> Look, I get a feeling your trying to start a Thunderbird v Gnus flame
> fest here. 

Seriously?  Reread the whole thread:
<http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2010-12/msg03088.html>.


> So I'll drop out ;) 

Good idea.  I'm done too.