Re: Emacs for mail: VM - WL - GNUS

[Jason Earl]

On Thu, Nov 25 2010, Elena wrote:

> On Nov 24, 9:46 pm, Jason Earl <je...@notengoamigos.org> wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 24 2010, Elena wrote:
>> > On Nov 23, 4:18 pm, Jason Earl <je...@notengoamigos.org> wrote:
>> >> Here is a basic setup that will connect gnus to an IMAP server on port
>> >> 993 via ssl.  In short, if all you need is the sort of basic setup that
>> >> you get from other mail clients this will suit you just fine.
>>
>> >> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
>> >> (setq gnus-secondary-select-methods
>> >>       '((nnimap "mail"
>> >>                 (nnimap-address "your.mail.server")
>> >>                 (nnimap-server-port 993)
>> >>                 (nnimap-stream ssl)
>> >>                 (nnimap-authenticator login))))
>> >> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>>
>> > Thank you very much, Jason.  However, my server is a POP one,
>> > otherwise I guess Gnus would not have been dumb enough to start
>> > downloading my mails and deleting them assuming I knew some bizantine
>> > settings to avoid that beforehand.  Thunderbird may be big and slow,
>> > but at least it does not make such assumptions.
>>
>> > For a text-based mail-client, I'm looking into Alpine now.
>>
>> It has been a long time since I have used a pop3 client, but when I used
>> to support such beasts downloading the messages (and deleting them from
>> the server) is precisely what they were *supposed* to do.  I would not
>> be surprised if most modern email clients still downloaded the messages
>> and deleted them from the server when using pop3.
>
> Fair rebuttal.  Then it is POP3 which sucks, not Gnus.

Precisely.

>> There are quite a few text-based email clients--heck, there are
>> probably a half dozen *good* email clients based on Emacs--but I
>> don't think that it is useful (or fair, for that matter) to advocate
>> discounting Gnus because it did what is customary in the case of a
>> pop3 server.
>
> My complaint was not about that single issue.  I was debating whether
> the general (*nix) attitude according to which a steep learning-curve
> is acceptable for "powerful" tools.  I say: it depends.  Here, we are
> not talking about an editor, where as long as you don't save anything,
> your files are safe.  We are talking about your own mailbox, which
> could get messed up by you just trying out a software.

Sometimes you just want to be able to read your email.  I certainly get
that.  There is no question that most modern email clients are easier to
configure than Gnus, especially if you have a straightforward email
setup.  Thunderbird has automated email setup to the point where I could
not figure out how to have it choose POP3 on a server that offered
IMAP.

On the flip side, Gnus is an excellent email and news client, and, as my
example shows, it does not take much to end up with a workable (and
safe) setup.  I spend a lot of time responding to emails, and using the
built in editor in an more modern email client is, quite simply, a
non-starter for me.  Reading the Gnus manual has certainly been time
well spent for me.

> I remember when I gave Gnus a try: it hanged Emacs while downloading
> and deleting my mails on the server.  I don't remember whether a
> `keyboard-quit' was enough to limit the damage or whether I had to
> shoot the Emacs process completely (maybe the former).  However, I was
> left with the idea to never try a "powerful" text-based mail-client
> again, and until this day I've sticked with Thunderbird.

I used to use Gnus' built in pop3 reader, and I agree that it is (or at
least used to be) suboptimal.  These days if I need a pop3 I use
fetchmail to pull the email to my IMAP server.

> Guys, we all agree that it is free software and nobody is forcing you
> to use it, but I think that criticism is fair anyway.

You clearly are free to feel that way.  I checked several modern pop3
clients (Outlook, Evolution, and Gmail) and they all downloaded and
deleted email by default.  I would not be surprised if Thunderbird also
defaulted to a the same manner of operation with pop3.

What's more Gnus is extremely well documented, and it's section on pop3
(which is about a page and a half of text) mentions what needs to be
done to leave mail on the server.  Nothing personal, but the learning
curve for this particular operation is not particularly steep.

I can understand if you still feel the need to advocate against Gnus
based on your experience, but my original post still is valid.  Setting
up Gnus so that it reads your email non-destructively is not that hard.
Even in your case Gnus probably did not destroy your inbox, it simply
downloaded some messages from the server and put them on your client
machine.  That is precisely what POP3 was designed to do.

You probably fell over the first time you tried to ride a bicycle.  A
single post to the Gnus mailing list/news group would have undoubtedly
cleared up your issue.

Jason