Re: Icon designer wanted (Aquamacs Emacs)

[David Kastrup]

Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> writes:

> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> But you should still point out that you are searching for help on a
>> non-GNU derivative of a GNU project that only runs on a proprietary
>> system, and do this under conditions that preclude this work to be
>> of use for the upstream project.  I don't think that a GNU help list
>> is the right place for that.
>
> Out of curiosity, what would be the right place for that?

comp.emacs is not GNU-internal and would probably be an appropriate
forum with sufficient readership.  So would be Mac-specific groups and
lists.

> Aquamacs is a benefit for Mac users, being native to the interface.
> The "straight" GNU Emacs is lacking in many ways in terms of its
> useability (from the perspective of Mac users, anyway).

Which would be a reason to work on enhancing GNU Emacs instead of
forking a project that gives only benefits to the users of a
proprietary system.

> I really don't understand your hostility towards either the Aquamacs
> project, or to the developer, or to Mac OS X, or whatever bug is up
> your britches.

There is no hostility involved.  I point out that a forked, separate
project for a proprietary platform helps only users of the proprietary
platform, and that is not the goal of the GNU project.

> Do you think that GNU Emacs should not be available to anyone not
> running a free Linux or BSD OS?  That it should not run on Mac OS or
> OS X, or on Windows or any other "proprietary" OS?

Nonsense.  How do you gather that?  But it certainly is not the scope
of the GNU-project to focus on improvements _only_ for proprietary
systems.  The upstream Emacs supports Carbon, Windows, a bunch of
proprietary Unices, a host of free ones, several Window systems.
Pains are taken that improvements are available to as many people as
possible.  Providing improvements only for proprietary systems is not
a goal of the GNU project.  And doing so in a manner that rules out
ever being legally able to actually make use of those improvements for
the sake of Emacs on proprietary platforms is certainly not a goal of
the GNU project either.

> Were you angry and hostile towards Andrew Choi for making the Carbon
> Emacs port possible?  After all, that only runs on Mac OSes as well.

So what?  It is integrated into the upstream code base, and it has
been done in a manner that makes sure that it can be used legally in
Emacs without problems.

> Fortunately for the rest of us, Stallman took a different view way
> back in the day.  He decided it was OK to use proprietary software
> to build free software.  Adding Aquamacs to the Emacsen available in
> the world increases freedom, since it too is free.

Increasing freedom only for the users of unfree systems is not a goal
of the GNU project, and never has been.  Stallman has _always_ been
adamant that free platforms were the ones important catering for, and
that no features for nonfree platforms only would become part of the
GNU project.

David Reitter has explicitly stated that he will not bother making
sure that the material with which he is enhancing Aquamacs has the
required paperwork done.  That means that the Aquamacs code, like
XEmacs code in general, can't be folded back into the main Emacs code
base.

> The only way it will cause a fork (as separate like XEmacs) is if
> the upstream people like yourself become closed minded and
> hidebound.

There is nothing "open minded" about letting legally unsound stuff
into the Emacs code base.  This had been done previously, and it was a
real mess to get it sorted out after problems occured.

The GPL and other legal papers exist for a reason, unfortunately.  One
can't avoid having to deal with the legal system.

> After all, the existing Emacs icons are pretty damned dated and
> sorely in need of a facelift.

But supporting a facelift that is permanently restricted (due to legal
reasons) to users of a proprietary system is not what the GNU project
is about.

One would imagine that people had learnt something from the XEmacs
fork.  Unfortunately, they are willing to do the same mistakes all
over again.  But they should be aware that this is neither in the name
nor in the interest of either the GNU project or free software.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum