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RE: Help-gnu-emacs Digest, Vol 12, Issue 30


From: Bhagat, Nirav
Subject: RE: Help-gnu-emacs Digest, Vol 12, Issue 30
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:53:05 -0500

help

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Subject: Help-gnu-emacs Digest, Vol 12, Issue 30


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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Cool and Useful LISP for the .emacs file (Eli Zaretskii)
   2. Re: make mouse click work in info? (Eli Zaretskii)
   3. Re: Cool and Useful LISP for the .emacs file (Stefan Monnier)
   4. Re: Q: Configuring Tramp on WinNT (Peter Lee)
   5. Re: cc-mode: Reverting to the 'dumber' indentation of nested
      function calls, as seen in Emacs20 (ERDI Gergo)
   6. Re: EDB date display dies in 21.3 (ChipsChap)
   7. Re: Cool and Useful LISP for the .emacs file (Burton Samograd)
   8. Re: Cool and Useful LISP for the .emacs file (Burton Samograd)
   9. Re: How to convert .doc to txt (Burton Samograd)
  10. Re: w3 under development or not? ( Bj?rn Lindstr?m )
  11. Re: Cool and Useful LISP for the .emacs file (Thien-Thi Nguyen)
  12. Re: Extending Emacs with C (Khuong D Pham)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: 11 Nov 2003 17:39:51 +0200
From: Eli Zaretskii <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: Cool and Useful LISP for the .emacs file
To: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>

> From: Alan Mackenzie<address@hidden>
> Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:43:35 +0000
> 
> <flamebait>

You've got it ;-)

> Some of us actually have to pay for our electricity.  Some of us care 
> that leaving a computer running continuously spews carbon dioxide into 
> the atmosphere (fuelling global warming) and creates radioactive 
> waste.

Power-saving settings, which can switch off almost everything during idle
time without requiring a reboot, were invented for this.

> But I don't like leaving Emacs running, even when my PC is on.  You 
> see, jit-lock runs continuously in the background, consuming vast 
> amounts of CPU usage, thus contributing even more to global warming, 
> et al.

JIT-lock only eats up cycles as long as there are buffers that aren't
completely fontified; then it stops.




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: 11 Nov 2003 17:47:57 +0200
From: Eli Zaretskii <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: make mouse click work in info?
To: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>

> From: address@hidden
> Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 06:52:42 +0000 (UTC)
> 
> Hi, how do I configure Info so that when I click on a link topic with 
> the left mouse button, it will go to that topic? I can jump to the 
> topic by press enter, but mouse click does not work.

It will work if you click the right button (a.k.a. "mouse-2").




------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:52:48 GMT
From: Stefan Monnier <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: Cool and Useful LISP for the .emacs file
To: address@hidden
Message-ID:
        <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> Some of us actually have to pay for our electricity.  Some of us care 
> that leaving a computer running continuously spews carbon dioxide into 
> the atmosphere (fuelling global warming) and creates radioactive 
> waste. We switch our computers off when not in use.  I often boot my 
> computer several times a day.

Why not `suspend' it ?
[ Incidentally: does anybody here have experience configuring a Linux
  desktop machine to behave "a bit like a laptop" and turn off its drive
  when not used, ...
  This is not only to save power but to save my ears as well.  ]

> But I don't like leaving Emacs running, even when my PC is on.  You 
> see, jit-lock runs continuously in the background, consuming vast 
> amounts of CPU usage, thus contributing even more to global warming, 
> et al.

Not continuously: only until it's all been re-font-lock'd.
And if you don't like it, you can turn off the background jit-locking by
setting jit-lock-stealth-time to nil.


        Stefan

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:11:17 GMT
From: Peter Lee <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: Q: Configuring Tramp on WinNT
To: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

>>>> Jack Saba writes:

    Jack> in the .emacs file, but was not able to come up with a
    Jack> combination of parameters that worked.

I have the following in my .emacs :

(require 'tramp)
(add-to-list 'tramp-methods 
             '("plink2"
              (tramp-connection-function  tramp-open-connection-rsh)
              (tramp-login-program        "plink")
              (tramp-copy-program         nil)
              (tramp-remote-sh            "/bin/sh")
              (tramp-login-args           ("-2" "-ssh"))
              (tramp-copy-args            nil)
              (tramp-copy-keep-date-arg   nil)
              (tramp-password-end-of-line "xy")))

(setq tramp-default-method "plink2")

This allows me to 'C-x d /address@hidden:/home/user RET' and get a directory
listing.  I can browse and copy files (text only) with no problem.  However,
if I try to open a remote shell (using plink) from eshell I run into the
same problems as you.

Basically I've just been using a seperate cmd (or cygwin) window for that
purpose.

Just some more info that may help... if you solve the eshell problem please
post your solution.


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:30:37 +0100 (CET)
From: ERDI Gergo <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: cc-mode: Reverting to the 'dumber' indentation of nested
        function calls, as seen in Emacs20
To: Kevin Rodgers <address@hidden>, <address@hidden>
Message-ID:
        <address@hidden>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Kevin Rodgers wrote:

> ERDI Gergo wrote:
>
> > So, who's inserting all those '$'s and how do I get rid of it?
>
> Did you follow the instructions in the Interactive Customization 
> section of the CC Mode manual?

Yes, but like I said, I still have no idea where the 'smart' indentation
comes from. C-c C-s in the second line tells me it's in arglist-intro, but
the value of arglist-intro only determines the '#' in the above example, and
not the '$' part.




------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: 11 Nov 2003 16:45:28 GMT
From: ChipsChap <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: EDB date display dies in 21.3
To: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Jesper Harder <address@hidden> writes:

> The problem is that EDB defines its own date functions in the global 
> name space (i.e. without a proper package prefix).  This is bound to 
> break sooner or later.  The solution would be to go through EDB and 
> replace them with the built-in Emacs date & time functions.

This turns out to be not *quite* the problem I encountered (although it's
surely a problem) but I will discuss that in the other newsgroup, as you
suggest below.

> NB: Please use gnu.emacs.sources for source code _only_.  Questions 
> and discussion should go to gnu.emacs.help.

Point noted and will do.  However, I think it is appropriate to post a patch
in this newsgroup and here is something that seems to work for the problem
at hand, as opposed to a total, global solution.  I also decided to get rid
of a small Y2K problem at the same time.  It is a patch to the EDB file
db-time.el, and someone please inform me by e-mail if this is not the proper
format for
patches:

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;begin patch to db-time.el

57,58c57,59
<   "Extract the year and return it modulo 1900."
<   (% (date-year date) 1900))
---
> "Extract the year and return it with the right two digits.
>     Makes no sense for years in early 1900s or late 2000s."
>   (% (date-year date) 100))
443c444
<     ("d"       . ((date-day date) .   (date-day date)))
---
>     ("d"       . ((date-day date) .   (format "%d" (date-day date))))
447,448c448,449
<     ("m"       . ((date-month date) . (date-month date)))
<     ("year"    . ((date-year date) .  (date-year-long date)))
---
>     ("m"       . ((date-month date) . (format "%d" (date-month date))))
>     ("year"    . ((date-year date) .  (format "%d" (date-year-long
date))))

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; end patch to db-time.el


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:00:06 GMT
From: Burton Samograd <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: Cool and Useful LISP for the .emacs file
To: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Alan Mackenzie<address@hidden> writes:

> Burton Samograd <address@hidden> wrote on Mon, 10 Nov 2003 
> 21:00:03
> GMT:
>> Stefan Monnier <address@hidden> writes:
>
>>> I still haven't heard from a Lisp hacker who found it difficult to 
>>> switch to C or Java (painful, yes of course, but not difficult, 
>>> except maybe for manual memory management), so I'd say that Lisp's 
>>> rut is rather shallow indeed.
>
>> From my experience, switching to lisp is a bit more work than the 
>> other way around, due to the type of people that helped shape lisp in 
>> the first place.  C and UNIX were developed around the "worse is 
>> better" type philosophy, where LISPy systems were more focused on the 
>> consistent and perfect side.
>
> All due respect, and everything, but the above is incoherent nonsense. 
> "Worse is better"?  What's that supposed to mean?  "..due to the type 
> of people that helped shape lisp"?  That seems disparaging.  What have 
> personalities got to do with the difficulties of learning a new 
> programing language?


Another poster replied as to what "Worse is better" was refering to. Just
because you haven't heard of something doesn't make it nonsense. As a hint,
when you're wondering what something is supposed to mean, rather than do an
instant-flame, try googling.
 
Also, try hanging out in comp.lang.lisp for a while where you'll get to hear
discussions and talk with the people that helped form the CL standard.
There are some very smart people that have some very good reasons for why
things are the way they are in the lisp world and their personalities have
*a lot* to do with it.  They have a knowledge base of many years of
experience that they have incorporated into the Lisp standard, and it takes
almost as long to learn all the nuances. 

This is part of the difficulty where people that are new to something find
it different to what they are used to so they feel a need to change it to
something more like what they are comfortable with rather than learning why
it was done that way in the first place.  

>
> [ .... ]
>
>> For the ones that want to attack the LISP learning curve there are 
>> plenty of resources available from the existing LISP community, but 
>> don't expect much help if you dive in and start telling them their 
>> language should be changed because you "don't get it".  LISP is great 
>> and LISP is fun, but it's still a programming language, but much more 
>> akin to a sketchbook than a paintroller.
>
> A "pain troller".  What a strange concept!  Such posters are, 
> thankfully, not common on gnu.emacs.help, but they are regretfully 
> abundant elsewhere on Usenet.  :-(

That's "paint roller"; sorry for missing a space.  I figured that most
posters like yours were a bit less abundant in these groups...I was just
sharing my thoughts on a programming language.

-- 
burton samograd
http://kruhftwerk.dyndns.org

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:00:07 GMT
From: Burton Samograd <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: Cool and Useful LISP for the .emacs file
To: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Jesper Harder <address@hidden> writes:
> Alan Mackenzie<address@hidden> writes:
>> All due respect, and everything, but the above is incoherent 
>> nonsense. "Worse is better"?  What's that supposed to mean?
>
> It's an expression coined by Richard P. Gabriel (a Lisp hacker) while 
> trying to explain why C and Unix became so popular even though they 
> (in his view) were technically inferior to The Right Thing, i.e. Lisp.
>
> See
>
>     <http://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html>
>
> for more details.

Thanks for the clarification; I thought that paper was more widely known.
Although the wording of the sentance is a bit inflammitory without
reference, I happen to find that it's closer to the way the world works than
being technically perfect (better translated as academic).  In the end I'm
still using a "worse" UNIX based OS, while the LISP machines have faded into
history (although many of the ideas still live on inside of emacs).

-- 
burton samograd
http://kruhftwerk.dyndns.org

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:00:08 GMT
From: Burton Samograd <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: How to convert .doc to txt
To: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Don Saklad <address@hidden> writes:

> In rmail in emacs, how do you convert .doc to txt ?...

Antiword gives good results:

http://www.winfield.demon.nl/

-- 
burton samograd
http://kruhftwerk.dyndns.org

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:16:51 +0100
From: address@hidden ( Bj?rn Lindstr?m )
Subject: Re: w3 under development or not?
To: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Joe Corneli <address@hidden> writes:

> Anyone working on w3 stuff?

That's a very good question.

> Like
>
> * not causing emacs to hang while looking for a server

That's a problem with Emacs not being multi-threaded, rather than w3. You
can expect this kind of behaviour to disappear some time after Emacs has
finally been ported to Guile.

-- 
Björn Lindström <address@hidden> http://bkhl.elektrubadur.se/
ICQ: 82945879

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: 11 Nov 2003 18:35:36 +0100
From: Thien-Thi Nguyen <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: Cool and Useful LISP for the .emacs file
To: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Stefan Monnier <address@hidden> writes:

> [ Incidentally: does anybody here have experience configuring a Linux
>   desktop machine to behave "a bit like a laptop" and turn off its drive
>   when not used, ...
>   This is not only to save power but to save my ears as well.  ]

check out the openbrick and similar small-form-factor systems.  i'm happy to
use the one here to work on emacs, guile, etc., even though it's only
300MHz.  it is more silent than the ambiant noise and much more silent than
the dude twiddling the guitar waiting for the compile to finish...

otherwise, if you have an IDE drive try "hdparam -S 1 /dev/hda".

thi

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:47:33 +0100
From: "Khuong D Pham" <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: Extending Emacs with C
To: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>

How did you compile emacs with msvc6. I have tried it without success I get
this when I run nmake after execute configure.bat:

makefile (25): fatal error U1035: syntax error : expected ':' or '='
separator


"Siegfried Heintze" <address@hidden> wrote in message
news:address@hidden
> I just compiled emacs on Win2000 using cl v12 (aka MSVC6). Hurray. Too 
> bad it it does not link when using the latest Microsoft C compiler (v 
> 13.1). Good thing I kept v12 around.
>
> Are there any documents that can guide me on extending emacs (elisp) 
> with
C?
> I want to call some COM objects from elisp.
>
>   Thanks,
>     Siegfried
>
>



------------------------------

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