RE: modeling tools for developping AND implementing

[Pierre-Alain Millet]

Yes, it's possible to start a project next year

1/ I want to propose next year a student placement.
I'm sure that we'll have students interested...
My laboratory can be involved, but our activity is centered on integration
and modelisation from a business point of view, and we are not focused on
software..

If you can propose a placement in a gnue development team, we can share
costs and organize together...

Subject and context have to be decided before october for a work starting in
november (2 days/week) and april/August full time.

2/ But we have first to decide WHAT is a business process modeling tools...
one can think that a BPM tools is nothing else that an UML tools for
software design
but offers on the market are very differents (IDS Scheer, Mega Process,
Akazi, e-scor, phios...)

In fact, this question is around the dualism "modeling for desing/modeling
for use"
, or "tools/usage" . Let me take an example... Do you know all about your
car engine ? If you try to model car pilot  behavior, do you need to model
the entire car ?

OK, for me, the answer is clear... NO !!

3/ but after that, we have to decide what is the relation betwwen both
model...

In my experience, ERP editors use CASE tools (generaly UML) for software
design (and generate 20% of software with these tools and develop directly
in code after...) and they have dedicated teams of consultants to create
business process models. I have this same experience with BAAN, SAP,
MOVEX...

Bu i'm not sure that is the best way.. It's more a constraint of "time to
market" necessity (first the software to enable sale, and after tools for
effective use...)

Perhaps, business process model can be the input of software functionnal
model ? but i would be more interested by an interactive approache (modeling
business give needs and constraints to modeling software, but modeling
software represents opportunity and constraints for business modeling...

pam

-----Message d'origine-----
De : address@hidden [mailto:address@hidden
Envoyé : dimanche 28 avril 2002 16:58
À : address@hidden
Objet : RE: modeling tools for developping AND implementing


Great idea! Do you have some people who would participate
in a new project? I'd be interested!

Regards
WW

> I knew that these products were not GNU...
> It's one of the reasons i post my first message..
> I think this domain is strategic for a gnu approach of enterprise
> applications...
> Why not a gnue "process modeling" tools ?
>
>
> regards
> pam
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : address@hidden [mailto:address@hidden
> Envoyé : mercredi 24 avril 2002 07:39
> À : address@hidden
> Objet : RE: modeling tools for developping AND implementing
>
>
> Hello PAM,
>
> thank you for your reply. I found your information very useful.
> Especially the key words are first class for searchiung the net.
>
> As far as I can see the products you mentioned are not useable for an
> open source project:
> Intellimorph is based on MS-technology - so runnable only on WinX.
> As for as i have seen the members of GNUe have a lot of mashines
> >from Wintel, MacOS and Unix/Linux so only a part of them could use
> the program.
> The other problem with the products is the price tag...
>
> Regards
> WW
>
> > Unfortunately, we don't have any translation of our web site.
> >
> > You will find a lot of english documentation on the web (Enterprise
> > modelisation, business process modeling, business process
> > reengineering...)
> > and products as intellimorph, phios, provision, gensym.. aris (european
> > leader company: IDS Scheer (germany)), mega...
> >
> >
> > herewith as attached file, a white paper from provision.
> >
> > regards,
> > pam
> >
> >
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : address@hidden [mailto:address@hidden
> > Envoyé : vendredi 19 avril 2002 07:56
> > À : address@hidden
> > Objet : Re: modeling tools for developping AND implementing
> >
> >
> > Hello Mr Millet,
> >
> > I don't know any french except the very basics and so I can't find
> > any interesting information on your web site. Do you have a version
> > in another language than french. I actually do speak german, english,
> > spanish and portuguese.
> > In case there's no translation can you explain at least some of the
> > basics of the content? What kind of software do you use for your
> > modelling process?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Wolfgang WILHELM
> > Munich, Bavaria
> >
> > > My experience on ERP systems as BAAN or MOVEX leads me to insist on
> > > process
> > > modelisation.
> > > As an associate professor, I try to build (INSA Lyon,
> > > http://if.insa-lyon.fr) a training on process modelisation for ERP
> > >
> > > I'm surprised that this question is not present on this list.
> > > I think that it's a more important question in a free software
> approach
> > > than
> > > in a classic way,
> > > because assembling components is a key element for a flexible and
> > > maintanable enterprise system.
> > > and assembling components need to control business process...
> > >
> > > So, 2 questions
> > >
> > > 1/ business process modeling
> > > to execute components or services from differents sources, one need of
> > > course standardisation of business objects and language to describe
> > them.
> > > this technical aspect is easy to decide and weel-known (XML and
> > > dialects...)
> > >
> > > But, from an organisationnal (roles, business process..) point of
> view,
> > > it's
> > > more complex
> > > You have to take in account that it's not easy to understant how is
> > > working
> > > a standard component, what is the real adequation with existing
> > > applications
> > >
> > > Often, the culture of the component designer or developper is very
> > > different
> > > >from those of the user... specially regarding business culture
> > > process modeling is mandatory a way to compare, understand, explain...
> > HOW
> > > a
> > > tools can be used
> > >
> > > 2/ modeling for desing and modeling for use
> > > Of course, we all know different modelisation technics, as SADT,
> MERISE
> > > (for
> > > oldiers !) and UML...
> > >
> > > But is process modeling the same activity whan one model a process to
> > > desing
> > > a future tools, and when one model a process ton understant who he can
> > use
> > > a
> > > tools ?
> > >
> > > >From my experience, i think that it is two different activities...
> > > because,
> > > when i model a process for training, simulating, consulting in an
> > > implementation project, i don't want to know how the package is
> working
> > > internally, but what human actors of the system have to do... I do'nt
> > want
> > > to model the system.. but the use of the system...
> > >
> > > One can say that there is a difference because my experience is on
> > classic
> > > packages, and that free approach let me know exactly HOW the system is
> > > working internally, so i can explain and decide exactly what i want..
> > and
> > > if
> > > needing, that i can customize the tools...
> > >
> > > What's your opinion ?
> > >
> > > 3/ Suggestion
> > > whatever is the correct answer... I think that a process modeling
> tools
> > to
> > > define what services the gnue packages can deliver would be very
> > > interesting..
> > > I can imagine a project next year with student on such a subject...
> > > Pierre-Alain MILLET
> > > Consultant ERP (Vanenburg Business System France)
> address@hidden
> > > Professeur Associé, Laboratoire PRISMA: address@hidden
> > > http://prisma.insa-lyon.fr/GroupeERP
> > > +33 (0)472436264 Mobile: +33 (0)607 50 33 81
> > > Bat. Blaise PASCAL Nord (501), Salle 227, 2ème étage
> > > INSA Villeurbanne. Département Informatique
> > > 20, avenue Albert Einstein
> > > 69621 Villeurbanne Cedex
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
> > http://www.gmx.net
> >
>
> --
> GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
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