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Re: [GNU-linux-libre] MAME


From: Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli
Subject: Re: [GNU-linux-libre] MAME
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 04:41:45 +0200

On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 09:50:23 +0200
Jean Louis <address@hidden> wrote:

> This is my opinion:
> 
> - comparing Gnash to MAME is out of the context.
I think they are both virtual machines that can run other programs on
top, so it looks very similar to me.

> - the context is the time. We are looking into Gnash which started
>   development 11 years ago. The purpose of Gnash was to liberate
> people so not to use Flash. The initial purpose of Gnash was
>   liberation. Reference to time when Gnash was developed:
>   https://www.gnu.org/software/gnash/manual/gnashuser.html
> - back in time GNU was searching for kernel. Until proper kernel was
>   found, it was hard for any GNU user to gain the degree of liberation
>   that is possible today, see:
> https://www.gnu.org/bulletins/bull4.html 
I think think that time is not a relevant criteria here, since we
still don't want to include software which steers users towards non-free
software, even if it was started long time ago with the goal of
liberating users. More below on gnash.

> - also websites and HTML changed, now everybody can watch and publish
>   videos without Flash. The purpose of Gnash has been achieved and is
>   being achieved.
Viewing videos is not the only purpose of Gnash, it is/was be used a
lot to run flash programs in standalone mode, for instance educative
games on the OLPC.

> - today we don't want to run, not even non-free Javascript, we have
>   LibreJS. it is there to complain to website owners to provide to us
>   either free software, or to decide not to run free software. 
Right, even if free software javascript do exist, I guess that remote
javascript code execution (from the website) to the computer
would run (without users knowledge) non-free javascript code.
How do we deal with that?

> - in my opinion it is quite correct to reject the inclusion of Mac Os
> on Linux, because such emulator, even free, is made to run non-free
>   software. By including it and justifying it that someone could make
>   free software on it, we speak out of the today's time context.
We should rather require documentation with each emulator, that would
tell where to compile and run 100% free software on that emulator.
Without it, the emulator would not be included.

>   Just like LibreJS was made for free software users.
> 
>   The question shall be: is this software that we want to include,
> made for free software users? MAMEĀ® is certainly not such software.
Unless someone documents how to run 100% free software with it.
That sounds a good compromise.

>   What is the purpose of this software? Does the purpose collide with
>   the purpose to liberate the users?
We can change the purpose of the software by providing documentation as
mentioned above.

>   Comparing MAME to Gnash, is comparing it out of the context. Today
> is 2016, not 2005 when Gnash was made to liberate people from
> proprietary Flash.
We're only talking about including or not software in distributions.
Time is irrelevant here since we are in 2016 now, and our decisions
only affect the present and the future.
We probably can find some flash program that can be built and run with
100% free software.

>   Today we have LibreJS, better comparison would be to compare the
>   purposes of MAME to purposes of Icecat with the built-in LibreJS. Of
>   course not everybody is using it, but Icecat is included in GuixSD
>   because of the liberation it brings to users.
The javascript issue is more tricky because it impacts users in a very
significant manner.

>   What liberation has MAME given to users over long time? It is
> binding users to use non-free ROMs.
Let's wait and see. Maybe you would have some free software running on
it one day.

Denis.

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