Re: [GNU-linux-libre] Re: any Free BSD variant?

[Graziano Sorbaioli]

On Thu, 2009-06-18 at 01:48 +0300, Waver Doganov wrote:
> Graziano Sorbaioli wrote:
> > So.. what do you think could be the best system/method to use as a
> > base to create a "GNU os"?
> 


> Very long answer:
> I've been thinking about this for years, 

Me too and I am happy to hear I am not the only one.

I think this is an important issue that should be discussed and I think
this list is the best place to do it.

I hope the list will agree about it.
If not, sorry, I will continue this discussion privately.



> My belief is that the task of cleaning up non-free parts from
> distributions is humiliating.  Sure thing, far from all free software
> developers care about freedom, so repackaging upstream tarballs is
> something that's going to be necessary for quite a long time,
> unfortunately.  But when you have to clone an entire distro only
> because they intentionally include non-free components, this is
> insulting.  There should never ever be a need for this exercise,
> because distros that have *declared* (e.g. Debian, Fedora) they care
> about freedom issues should be entirely non-free-clean by default.
> And by an unwritten definition, a GNU distro should be an assembled
> GNU system which users can install and upgrade (taking into account
> dependencies) without hassle, as opposed to doing it yourself from
> scratch.
> Thus, I consider the work done by the gNS developers (just an example,
> things are probably very similar for other entirely free distros) as
> something necessary and very appreciated, but neither viable nor
> desirable on the long term.
> 
> The long term solution, in my view, is to develop an absolutely free
> distro from scratch, of course basing it off (initially at least, and
> probably forever for the packaging-specific toolchain) an existing
> one.


Fully agree.
I always thought that if we had a "gnu" distro we could set it up how we
want it including what we want instead of keep fighting with
debian/fedora/ubuntu to convince them to include or not include xyz.



> 
> Yes, this is unfortunate duplication of effort.  But I see no other
> way.  (This was considered before, multiple times, and rms has
> rejected the idea of a pure "GNU" distro.  Instead, he has suggested
> to raise specific concerns and cooperate actively with communities
> like Debian's.  This is mission impossible, IMNSHO.  They just don't
> listen to us, and there's no way to change that.)


Sure maybe this could not seem the easiest and best way to do it but I
think that, like gnewsense, people will come and collaborate if they
trust the idea of a pure gnu fully free system.

I agree that cooperate actively with communities like Debian's is
mission impossible.
Me, Giuseppe Scrivano and other gnu people tried too many times to talk
to them with no result.

As you said "They just don't listen to us, and there's no way to change
that".


So where do we go from here?

Actually two versions of gNewSense are based on debian: the mips version
I am currently using on my Lemote Yeeloong, and the ppc one
(i386 32 and 64 bit are still ubuntu based for now).


Basing on debian is a first step. I am not a developer but the people
who currently maintain gNewSense assured me that using debian as a base
will make gnewsense easily to maintain and upgrade.

How can we move forward from that?

We should create a gnu community repository (another thing which is work
in progress for gnewsense devs) where we could put all that things
debian don't have/don't want: linux-libre, gnu icecat and so on.


I see this "community repo" as the first step towards an indipendent gnu
os.
First we start to use debian main as a base and add our libre packages
via our repo, in the future we could have our own version of every
package until all the system is hosted on fsf servers and composed only
of libre gnu packages.


We could keep using the gnewsense name (if gnewsense creators agree
obviously) because people already know it and already associate it with
the concept of a fully libre distro.

So just to summarize.

0) complete the process of switching all gnewsense versions from ubuntu
to debian (mips is almost finished, ppc is work in progress, i386 32 and
64bit have yet to start).

1) Complete the work which is being done by gnewsense devs on the
community repository and add/maintain our libre packages there.

2) Discuss how to move forward using Waver Doganov's documentation,
better if all the process is inside a wiki (config.fsf.org?)

3) Start to apply what Waver Doganov has just proposed: switching
packages to the GNU alternative, one by one.


Any suggestion or comment is welcome.

-- 
Graziano Sorbaioli  |  http://sorbaioli.org

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