[Fsfe-uk] Re: [Northwales] OSS in Schools

[Ian Lynch]

On Sat, 2006-10-14 at 21:25 +0100, Richard Smedley wrote:

> Hello Oli,
> 
> Sounds like you bear the scars ;-)
> 
> > Firstly, yes, it would be nice to see more Linux in schools - but its
> > not going to happen.  For a number of reasons which geek types never
> > seem to grasp.
> >
> > Cost.  This is the major one.  So the software is free.  Big deal.  To
> > all extent and purposes, Windows is basically free as well.  With the
> > fantastic deals M$ have done for the public sector in the past few
> > years, licensing in schools is not the issue it is for the SME's of
> > this world.
> 
> Only the dimmest of advocates talks of costs of software /licensing/
> as a major factor in schools (although note that in certain circumstances
> it is a consideration).

It is a consideration in marketing. Geeks don't understand marketing,
its a well-known fact. Actually most people working in the public sector
don't understand marketing either ;-)

> The major cost is hardware, followed by admin time (typically 4 times 
> longer keeping MS Windoes boxes up).

The major cost in education is teachers. 70-80% of the budget in a
secondary school more in primary. Exam costs alone are around 80k a year
in a secondary school. If you can give teachers less hassle you have
some chance of making whatever you want work. The brute logic tech idea
that linux is better or Linux is cheaper isn't going to work at this
point in time with the current environmental factors. But never is a
long time :-) 

> One schol I know in Skegness has saved so much money by using
> Free Software on an LTSP set-up that they've built a new building
> and employed an extra part-time IT teacher with the budget savings =o)

These are the early adopters. You have to get all the potential early
adopters on board first before mainstream change takes place. Again its
well documented in books on tipping points, business growth etc. Once it
becomes safe or even cool to have Linux other people will follow - even
if its more expensive! Fashion defies logic. But we have to get from (a)
to (b) and we won't do that without patience and going through some
frustration with those "idiots" out there that can't see the obvious :-)

> > A much bigger cost is the cost of converting ALL the bespoke software
> > which runs on Windows, and need to be used as part of the curriculum.
> > Yes, you can use Wine, but its not the same, is it?
> 
> To repeat a point from my last e-mail:

So we need a strategy to make enough software available that can run on
both existing systems and Linux so that what is running the
infrastructure including desktops becomes fairly irrelevant. Ok big job
and it will take time so let's start yesterday. The Government's
e-strategy is about getting more stuff web based. Applications like
Moodle are potential killers here because they enable all schools to use
some FOSS educationally relevant stuff without a lot of hassle. Let's
promote Moodle in schools and get everyone a step on to the ladder that
leads to Linux. Our INGOT strategy is complementary to this. Let's save
them money in indirect ways, get the dialogue open in terms they
understand, not geek-speak. We can reduce examining costs, reduce
bureaucracy and give teachers a reason to learn more about FOSS. Its
going to take time - maybe 10 to 20 years - in fact by then we might
well find everyone is just using thin client access because broad band
is gig+ so schools don't need local servers. I have one client already
doing this in a DfES pilot and they are running OpenOffice - might even
be Linux back at the servers, the Head didn't know. His attitude was as
long as they have basic productivity tools who cares about the rest as
its cheaper and less hassle? But again he is an early adopter. In that
scenario licensing individual machines will be unsustainable and the
centralised aggregating of services will make the sums involved to the
supplier significant so either MS will have to radically reduce prices
or the market will naturally migrate away from them as it has with
Mobile phones. There is no way they will sustain £70 a license per seat
for just Windows in the longer term. its inevitable that schools will
get one terminal per child. That's 70 grand on Windows alone and its
unaffordable.

> £1,000,000,000 gets spent each year on IT in schools in the UK. At
> the moment this includes £110,000,000 per year on proprietary ``curriculum''
> software [4], despite the fact that 5% of that would see Free Software written
> to cover _every_ aspect of the curriculum :-(

Yes, but that gravy train looks likely to hit the buffers soon so expect
quite a few companies selling proprietary software to suddenly start
feeling the pinch. A Venture Capitalist asked me about Espresso on
Thursday. I said its a risky investment. Why? Over the last 4 years
their growth and performance is artificially inflated by curriculum
on-line so anything extrapolated from this in the future will be wildly
optimistic when elcs run out. Besides, in 5 years if INGOTs goes to
plan, we will be providing similar web based apps for free. 

> iow every area of curriculum software needs could be addressed _permanently_
> for a fraction of what is currently spent _annually_
> Using web-based software, this could be parcelled out to programmers across 
> the UK (remember when we all bought British ;^) and would work across all
> desktop platforms, freeing hardware and OS choice from lock-in.

But we don't want to be dependent on government for this. If we can get
a change in government policy great and we should make an effort, fine,
but we should also work on the basis that this won't happen so have a
strategy that does not depend on it. Government's will come on board
when they think the risk of doing it is less than the risk of not doing
it. That will happen in developing countries and economies first, but
that is big volumes of users and that determines standards in the longer
term.

> > Finally, you have the issue of Drivers.  Is there a suitable
> > whiteboard driver available for all versions of Linux, which works
> > faultlessly with the manufacturer software?  Does it work with all the
> > different brands of whiteboard? How about all the other bespoke
> > hardware for science and other subjects?

Forget whiteboards. They are a transient fad. What matters is the
projector and web based resources. If there are sufficiently good web
based resources a tablet PC could do a better job than an IWB in most
cases, or indeed any interactive touch screen. Ok, the Welsh Assembly
blew 6 million on IWBs. Its not that big a deal. 

> I'll save the farce of the soi-disant ``interactive'' whiteboards for 
> another mail :-/
> 
> > These are just the technical issues.

The technical issues are the things to consider last not first. Social
and emotional issues are the first point of call, those and eating the
elephant a bite at a time.

> > Next you have the training and practical problems.  Is there enough
> > knowledge available in the average school to be able to deal with a
> > kid who's just downloaded a unix file which breaks KDE?  What happens
> > when the sound goes on the blink? What about all the work the kids did
> > two years ago on Office which just doesn't convert properly in
> > OpenOffice?
> 
> Perhaps you are unaware that under BSF schools will, in any case, lose 
> control 
> over IT installations and support?
> Nevertheless, LTSP makes admin and support childsplay - each school can have 
> an LTSP server, supported by ssh from the LEA - and broken clients are 
> replaced in 30 seconds :-)

First set up a system for educating teachers and kids about FOSS - we
have this in the INGOTs and we have over 100 schools now either
operating or targeted as good prospects in the UK alone with assessors
in about 15 countries. We have the exam regulators coming on Wednesday
to approve us as a Government recognised Awarding Body and that will
accelerate growth significantly. When the customers understand the
issues and start demanding that they have OOo on the network because its
needed as an educational application, BSF suppliers will be only too
happy to oblige if it reduces their costs. Our business planning shows
we can provide integrated support for our qualifications including all
the software applications for learning at a significantly lower cost
than the established exam boards so when a school can get al the IT
support it needs for a course leading to a recognised qualification
freely from the internet with no hassle, why would they pay more to have
more hassle? We have to lower the barriers to change, not try and jump a
30 metre hurdle in one bound.

> > Considering that the IT work is expected to be on MS Office, what
> > happens if they submit work on OpenOffice and the examiners can't open
> > it?  Will the kids not get a grade, and who will have to pay the
> > compensation?

Actually AFAIK none of the main exam boards require the use of say MS
Word even though most of the schools use it. As a new exam board, all
our qualifications are doable entirely with FOSS but we don't exclude
people using proprietary because we want a big market to get plenty of
money in to further FOSS development. They do have to learn about FOSS,
study FOSS projects and make community contributions but we don't ask
them to change their technology because that is too big a jump at this
point in time.

> There is nothing in either the National Curriculum, nor in BECTA's 
> recommendations, to justify that comment. BECTA have insisted to me that they 
> equally support OOo with other office suites.

Steve Lucey, the head of infrastructure at BECTA asked me for
suggestions about how to get OOo onto every computer sold to a school!
Its not that easy.

> Many other countries already mandate the use of the ODF format ussed as 
> standard by OOo. Of course UK will be at the trailing edge here, but in the 
> meantime BECTA do /recommend/ open file formats, and OOo will save in 
> proprietary MS formats should a backwards teacher insist.
> 
> > Sorry for all the doom and gloom, but you will need to be able to
> > answer this type of question to be in with half a chance of getting
> > anywhere!

I believe we have better than half a chance - if I thought it was less
than 50% I wouldn't be betting my business on it. INGOTs are becoming
financially self-sufficient and growing. Put the word INGOT in Google
and see what is top of the list :-) Attitudes are changing and global
momentum is building which puts pressure on the government in the right
direction. This was never going to be an easy or quick change to make,
the entrenchment is massive but all things change, the only uncertainty
is the timescale and its generally longer than a lot of geeks would
like. C-est la vie. From a business point of view inertia has some
advantages because it gives us time to grow at a manageable pace
otherwise only big multinational corps would get a look in.

> Doom and gloom is inevitable when dealing with the British education system 
> (well, England and Wales, anyway - Scotland isn't always so bad).

Scotland is just as bad in some ways. All bureaucracies tend to be slow
risk averse and frustrating - its why I don't work for the government
any more but it helps to understand how government works :-)

>  However 
> just keep looking at the success stories - here and overseas - and work with 
> schoolforge UK. There's grounds for cautious optimism ;-)
> 
> > There is however, an alternative. Forget trying to get Linux on the
> > desktop.  Its a lost cause. 

Its not the immediate priority in the management of change. We have
installed some Linux desktops and there is still demand so no need to
pull the plug on that, but there is plenty of scope to get FOSS into
schools that is a lot easier to manage and can be profitable.
Profitability is important because FOSS really need sustainable business
models if it is to thrive.

> Linux is just one kernel - I'm interested in getting any Free Software stack 
> in front of the next generation. GNU or BSD.

Or even Open Source applications on Windows to start with. The goal is
not immediate perfection but is what we are doing now better than last
year and will next year be better still? If the answers to those
questions are consistently yes, the long term outcome is inevitable.
Don't worry that its not going to happen universally tomorrow.

> For the last decade it's been near-impossible to find employable 
> school-leavers, due to the damage done to their understanding of computers 
> while using DOS and MS Windows. Every other GNU/Linux company I talk to 
> reports the same problem :-(

I think that is a bit over-stating the case. Its certainly the case that
the demise of computing in schools is a big problem, but so is the
demise of physics. Attitudes that perpetuate tolerance of Windows
probably are in part responsible but I don't think Windows in itself as
a technology has resulted in universally unemployable pupils. Fact is
that there is more and more competition for the brightest kids, not just
in the IT industry so there is a perception that kids are not as well
educated as in the past at least partly because we are asking people
that would have been consigned to manual and semi-skilled labour to
become IT technicians and office workers. 

> Read up on the success of pupils from schools like Skegness - either in my 
> articles, or in 
> 
> http://www.schoolforge.org.uk/index.php/Skegness_Grammar
> 
> page 7 of:
> http://www.schoolsnetwork.org.uk/uploads/documents/ictupdatesp06_122253.pdf
> 
> http://www.schoolforge.org.uk/index.php/Case_Studies
> 
> http://casestudy.seul.org/cgi-bin/caseview0.pl    [ignoring comment spam]
> 
> & blogs like Miles Berry's:
> 
> http://elgg.net/mberry/weblog/125221.html
> http://elgg.net/mberry/weblog/125299.html
> 
> http://elgg.net/mberry/weblog/
> 
> > The big money in education currently is 
> > in VLE's (Virtual Learning Enviroments) - the best news is that
> > Schools have an OSS option in Moodle.  THIS is where the advantage of
> > the no cost, Linux solution comes in.
> 
> Berry (see above) is a persuasive advocate of Moodle in primary schools.
> Note that Moodle is so much more than a VLE - and is very successful
> at bringing children into learning who hang back in class, and don't stick 
> their hands up with the answers.
> 
> Moodle is also used by more than 50% of the UK's FE colleges, and the largest 
> roll-out (to 100,000 clients) has just been started by the OU.
> 
> > Read up on it - It realy is a great success story for OSS and could
> > and has saved a huge fortune for the schools who've gone down this
> > route.
> >
> > Finally, don't compare Wales to Spain!  It might well be true, but the
> > only way you are going to convince any changes is to point at the
> > successes of OSS in England.  Using the idea that a much richer area
> > has decided to go down the OSS route because its better, works.
> > Saying that a nation of Donkey Hurders (Sorry Spain, its just a
> > humourous analogy with no malice intended!) chose this option because
> > they couldn't afford anything better doesn't work!
> 
> Spain is one of the world's top ten economies, and comparing our car industry 
> (say) to theirs gives us little room for comments about donkeys :-(

I visited both Extremadura and Catlonian governments. Extremadura is not
as poor as it seems because it gets massive EU subsidies for being
poor :-)

Global change is important. IT standards are not decided in the UK, if
they were we would all be using Acorn computers. What the UK government
does or doesn't do will be largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of
things, they can speed thing up or slow them down but they won't change
global direction and as IDC research stated recently, open source is the
biggest change taking place in the software industry since the early
1980s.

> Cost _is_ important to tax payers (myself included). Free software can win on 
> cost. But as stated above, and elsewhere, there are technical and pedagogical 
> grounds for choosing Free Software :-)
> 
> Faced with a nine-figure sum poured into the pit of proprietary software each 
> year, and another generation of point-and-drool ignoramuses turned out at 
> great expense by our schools, it would be criminal not to try and act to 
> change things :-/

Apart from the business argument. Its better to have a start up based on
a growing worldwide change than one that is stagnating with falling
margins and no real source of competitive advantage. Luckily not too
many people have cottoned on to this or know how to do it but that will
change too as the momentum builds.

> Getting back on-topic to the needs of Welsh schools:
> ``Mae Linux yn arbennig o dda ar gyfer ieithoedd fel Cymraeg, a gafodd eu 
> hanwybyddu yn y gorffenol gan cynhyrchwyr mawr meddalwedd, o achos mae'n 
> gadael i'r defnyddiwr newid yn ôl ac ymlaen rhwng ieithoedd, ac nid oes angen 
> arsefydlu rhaglenni ychwanegol arbennig i drin acenion fel y to bach (^). 
> Rydym yn credu y bydd KOffice yn rhoi cyfle ardderchog i siaradwyr a dysgwyr 
> Cymraeg ddefnyddio'r iaith mewn rhan arall o fywyd bob dyd.''
> Kevin Donnelly, Kywaith Kyfieithu (http://www.kyfieithu.co.uk) [1]
> 
> Initiatives like this give good Welsh language support right across the 
> stack - the same argument that has seen GNU/Linux installations in minority 
> language areas from South Africa to Mallorca.

We will soon be looking at translating the whole of the INGOTs into
Welsh :-)

> > Please take the above an an opinion which you may or may not agree
> > with - however, if I was in your shoes, its certainly the tact I would
> > take.
> 
> Of course - the wider range of opinions that Phil gets the better. He'll have 
> to be prepared for many such arguments ;-D
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Pob hwyl,
> 
>  - Richard
> 
> [1] Translation: ``GNU/Linux is especially good for languages such as Welsh, 
> which have been ignored in the past by large software makers, because it 
> allows the user to switch back and forth between several languages, and there 
> is no need to install special add-in programs to handle accent marks like 
> the "to bach" (^). We believe that KOffice gives Welsh speakers and learners 
> a great opportunity to use Welsh in another area of daily life.''
> 
> btw apologies to list admins for cross-posting - if you feel aggrieved then 
> please take the matter up with me at the LinuxWorld bar ;-)
> 
Ian
-- 
www.theINGOTS.org
www.schoolforge.org.uk
www.opendocumentfellowship.org