Re: [fluid-dev] Help about EWI behavior

[jean-jacques.ceresa]

Hi,

>Louis: OK, here a link to my recording of the EWI midi data along with the audio output using the EWI5000 own builtin synth. There is also a screen shot showing the breath data.

Thanks a lot for the audio,midi and screen shot. All are very useful.
1) About articulations "détaché" , "legato"
MIDI data shows what one could expect about EWI behavior.
1.1) We can see that the MIDI stream produced by an EWI when playing "détaché" or "legato" is straightforward .
In others words, when this MIDI stream is input to a polyphonic synthesizer the MIDI data contents what is needed
for the synthesizer to play "détaché" or "legato" even if the synthesizer is not set in monophonic mode.
1.2)We can see also that we can obtain this result when the MIDI controler source is polyphonic (i.e Keyboard).
But in this case, one must set the synthesizer in monophonic mode.
Currently FluidSynth does not support this MIDI monophonic mode behavior. Specifications are needed.

>Louis: The challenge is to if any one can get this to play well using fluidsynth.

2) About sound realism, and reproducibility
The sound produced by a good soundfont SF2.01 synthesizer is not dependent of the synthesizer engine but
rather dependant of the loaded soundfont preset. In other words, if one want to change something in the sound
this must be done in the Soundfont. This way the new sound will be reproducible on others SF2.01 synthesizer.
like Fluidsynth.

Requesting a SF2.0 synthesizer to mimic the sound produced by an other kind of synthesizer is a real challenge.
2.a) It is often possible when the other synthesizer is a "sampler" (i.e both "subtractive" and "additive").
2.b) It can be often impossible when the other synthesizer is a "physical modeling".
2.c) Again, if the solution exists it a matter of Soundfont design.
Beetween 2.a and 2.b there is a lot of room for SF2.0 synthesizer

jjc

Le 03/05/2015 15:07, Louis B. a écrit :

Hi All,

OK, here a link to my recording of the EWI midi data along with the audio output using the EWI5000 own builtin synth. There is also a screen shot showing the breath data.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bw4x97avTsP-fnpENUNfNGNBSEIxUUk2bmpGSE0xLTBtSFZhcnNCT0ROd3hneF9Ybklfczg&usp=sharing

The small gaps in the breath data are where I was tonguing at the start of some notes. I also play with a folk style and use quite a lot of ornamentation.

Thanks

Louis

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Louis B. <address@hidden> wrote:

Hi, jcc,

Here are my replies. Sound  + midi recording to follow.

jjc> Technically 'vibrato' is a pitch modulation and 'tremolo' is an amplitude modulation. What are you talking about ?

I am talking about the way I play the flute and the sound produced when I don't play a steady note.

jjc> 2.a) Do you mean that this "modulation"  is blended in the sound signal sample ?

Yes, I meant that. The problem with this "modulation"  in the sound signal sample is that that the breath data steam includes it own natural modulation/vibrato following how the player plays.  It may be better to work with sound fonts that use fluidsynth for the modulation as it is possible to override this with the breath modulation.

jjc> Here the list of default modulators to change the amplitude of a sounding note in real time (called "Initial Attenuation" in SoudFont terms) .

What is needed is "Continual Attenuation"  rather than "Initial Attenuation".

I don't think that the 'note on' velocity is used so much in a breath capable synth instead the amplitude is set from the breath stream.

jjc> When MIDI noteOn event occurs ? When you start blowing ?

Yes, and also when you play a different note.

jjc> When MIDI noteOff event occurs ? When you stop blowing ?

Yes, and also when you play a different note.

There is a subtlety here, if you change notes while blowing steadily the new 'note on' comes just before the old 'note off'. When this happens maybe you should skip the attack part of the new note and go straight into the sustain part of the next note. Lets called these 'linked notes', more about this in following emails.

jjc> If possible, MIDI file format 2 will be appeciated as well the kind of synthesizer used when recording audio.

I use the built in sound generator of the EWI5000. There are not many breath capable synths out there.

It would be great if we could tweak fluidsynth to make it a breath capable synth but there are lots of challenges.

Louis

On 1 May 2015 at 18:21 "CERESA Jean-Jacques ENAC/ENAC"  wrote:

>  Hi, Louis

>  

> Thanks for you response about this subject.
> I need some precision from your last post and to ovoid overload on  fluidsynth maillist i prefer using direct mailing.
>  
> >However playing a note on the EWI it always sends a midi note on with a velocity just above zero.
> >This is because when you start blowing the sound level starts from zero then builds up.
> When MIDI noteOn event occurs ? When you start blowing ?
> When MIDI noteOff event occurs ? When you stop blowing ?
>  
> >but this is a large sound fount and has the vibrato built into the sound loops
> 1) Often musician use 'vibrato' word talking  about amplitude modulation.
> Technically 'vibrato' is a pitch modulation and 'tremolo' is an amplitude modulation. What are you talking about ?
>  
> 2.a) Do you mean that this "modulation"  is blended in the sound signal sample ?, or
> 2.b) Do you mean that it is described as a modulator with a MIDI CC on input. ?.
> In case 2.a, while playing it is impossible "to say" to the synthesizer engine to change anything during synthesis.
> In case 2.b, while playing it alway possible "to say" to the synthesizer engine to change any parameters via MIDI CC and modulators.
> Soundfont (2.01) have a lot of default modulator. For example Mod wheel (MIDI CC 1) to Vibrato LFO pitch depth.
> It is just an example describing a MIDI CC that change the pitch depth of Vibrato LFO.
> Notice that 'Vibrato LFO' in soudfont 2.01 synthesizer model is an LFO that change the pitch of sound.
>  
> > What is needed is a custom sound font that uses a breath controller to control the volume. There is natural vibrato in the MIDI breath data.
> > So what would be great if we could somehow add a magic flag to fluidsynth that overrides the global vibrato modulation used on many sound fonts
> > and instead control that with the breath controller input. This would save having to manually edit all the sound fonts to respond to the breath controller.
>  
> To control the amplitude of a note in real time you need a soundfont with a modulators to do that.
> Fortunately, when any soundfont is loaded, a list of default modulators is build inside the engine. You can use theses defaut modulators
> as far they are not changed by custom modulators having the same name in the soundfont.
>  
> Here the list of default modulators to change the amplitude of a sounding note in real time (called "Initial Attenuation" in SoudFont terms) .
>
> - MIDI Note-On Velocity to Initial Attenuation
>
> - Volume (MIDI CC 7) to initial attenuation
>
> - _expression_ (MIDI CC 11) to initial attenuation
>
>  
>
> As you see there is no default modulator with breath controler (CC 2 ) on its input. But when using fluidsynth application you can "say" it to transform
>
> any MIDI message CC 2 in a MIDI CC 11 using the router command line interface.
>
> Using fluidsynth application, you need to enter the following command in the shell to instruct the router.
>
> # Remove current rules (to remove any default rules):
> router_clear
>
> # Set the rule to transform CC breath (CC 02) to CC _expression_ (CC 11)
>
> router_begin
>
> cc
>
> router_par1 02 02 0 11
>
> router_end
>
> # Set the rules to pass through other messages types (note, prog, pbend, cpress, kpress)
>
> router_begin note
>
> router_end
>
> router_begin prog
>
> router_end
>
> router_begin pbend
>
> router_end
>
> router_begin cpress
>
> router_end
>
> router_begin kpress
>
> router_end
>
>  
>
> >I will post over the weekend a MIDI recording (with matching audio).
>
> If possible, MIDI file format 2 will be appeciated as well the kind of synthesizer used when recording audio.
>
>  
>
> Thanks a lot for your contribution.
>
>  
>
> jjc
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  

 

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