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RE: Modernize frame-title-format: "%b - GNU Emacs"

From: Drew Adams
Subject: RE: Modernize frame-title-format: "%b - GNU Emacs"
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 09:35:36 -0700 (PDT)

> > Sure.  But see below (you quoted, but didn't address).
> > Even if someone agrees that the app name should be
> > present, should it really be leftmost?
> Not leftmost but righmost, by convention and by your own argument that
> the most specific information should stay when the title is truncated.

Thanks; I misunderstood you.  I have no problem
with appending that (or anything else).  I thought
you were suggesting prepending, as if that were the
most important info to see.

> > And how often is the app name really helpful?
> This is a trick question. You’re challenging the convention here,
> asking me to find an excuse to not follow it.

It wasn't meant as a trick question.

Where is this convention defined?  Is it a real
"thing" - some standard or something, or is it
just that you've noticed that many apps use such
naming?  I'm not challenging you; just curious
about this.

> > > > How common is the use of multiple applications
> > > > (in separate window-mgr windows) for the same
> > > > file or directory (or other argument)?
> >
> > ? How often, for the same file?  If you see only the
> > file or dir name, is it hard to know that the app is
> > Emacs?  Most of the time?
> I might have a Dired for the root directory of an application project
> open in Emacs, and the actual application running in a second window.
> Both will have the same title in your proposed scheme.
> I might be editing an HTML file in Emacs and previewing it in Firefox,
> and it might not have a <title> yet. You want me to look at titles and
> mentally say “This one is ‘index.html - Mozilla Firefox’, so that one
> ‘index.html’ must be Emacs”?

OK.  If I were in your shoes in that context I'd
configure my frame titles to fit such use cases.
I don't see that as important for the default
case.  But I may well be mistaken wrt how common
your case is.

> > I argued to put the more specific info first, i.e.,
> > leftmost.  The app name is less specific than the file
> > name etc.
> The convention already does this.

Good.  So we're in agreement about the only thing
I've really argued for.

> > Imagine if every one of your browser windows had "Google
> > Chrome" or "Firefox" or "Internet Explorer" or "Brave"
> > as its leftmost text.  Imagine how useful/useless that
> > would be for picking a window out of a task-bar list,
> > a set of tabs, or any other list.  Imagine if every
> > mail-client window had the client name at the far left:
> > "Outlook" or whatever.
> I don’t need to imagine it, I *remember* it.

(Me too.  And I still see it here and there.  And
I don't like it.)

> > What I see in the title bar for a Chrome or Brave or
> > Firefox or IE browser is this, from the left:
> >
> > 1. A site icon.  E.g. fancy "T" for New York Times site.
> > 2. A page title, possibly with a subtitle.  E.g.
> >    "Opinion | Kenosha Tells Us More About Where the Right
> >     Is Headed Than the R.N.C. Did".
> >
> > That means I can easily pick out that web page by its
> > app icon and page title.  Would you really prefer that
> > the frame title be something like this?
> >
> > "Google Chrome <NYT icon> Opinion | Kenosha Tells Us More
> > About Where the Right Is Headed Than the R.N.C. Did"
> >
> > Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you.  I hope so.
> Yes you are. Ideally:
> <Chrome icon> Kenosha Tells Us More
> About Where the Right Is Headed Than the R.N.C. Did | Opinion – Google Chrome
> possibly abbreviated to:
> <Chrome icon> Kenosha Tells…
> (The web site icon totally does not belong in a browser title bar,
> because then a web site could impersonate a locally installed
> application, at least until the user activates the window and sees the
> address bar.)

We'll have to disagree about that last part, I guess.

> >> It’s a convention,
> > Maybe some places, i.e., for some apps.  I don't see
> > it for most apps, including web browsers and mail
> > client, on MS Windows.  (And you did mention "Windows.)
> I do not know which browsers and mail clients you use but Firefox and
> Thunderbird do append “- Mozilla Firefox” and “- Thunderbird” to every
> title, at least for me on GNU/Linux, and I remember it being that way
> back when I was using Windows.

On Windows I don't see it in Firefox, Google Chrome,
IE, or Brave (chromium).

But I guess I'm not really seeing a frame (wm window)
title.  As those browsers all use tabs, it's the tab
title I guess I've been talking about, for a browser.
I don't see a separate window title.  And googling
for that suggests that you need to fiddle or use an
add-on to implement or fake a window title.  (Is that
correct?  It's my impression, so far.)

Interestingly, for Chrome, I see this when I mouseover
a tab:

 "The New York Times - Breaking News, World News &

 followed by the site URL: "nytimes.com"

Similarly, for other sites.  IOW, the (closest
equivalent I can find to a) window title includes
lots of info: page title plus the site URL.

(I don't see the site URL for Brave or Firefox.)

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