Liam,
On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 8:30 AM Liam Proven <lproven@gmail.com> wrote:
On 22/07/2024 4:08 pm, Gregory Casamento wrote:
> Liam,
>
> Really not in the mood this morning, but here goes...
Fair. I really should not have posted when I was in a negative mood myself.
I can only speak for myself, but I wasn't in the greatest of moods yesterday at all. I apologize if I came off as abrasive.
> As evidence for #3 below, you should be aware that GNUstep currently has
> a wayland capable backend. It is still in development, but it is there.
Good. Great.
>
> No one in this project is in denial. It only seems so because you
>
> 1) Have contributed ABSOLUTELY NO code.
I am not a programmer.
I understand.
> 2) Post only when you have something negative to say
No, I generally come seeking info.
If that's so it's best not to make assertions based on assumptions about where this project is going. We have had a wayland backend for about 3 years. Granted it was never posted under news because it is still being worked on. One thing I can tell you from my own experience is that announcing something too soon can sometimes be detrimental as people will try it and immediately get turned off.
> 3) Don't seem to keep abreast of the changes on the project as evidenced
> by the lack of information in some of your posts.
Could be. If it isn't on this list, I probably don't know about it.
AFAICS there's no "news" or "updates" section on gnustep.org. There is
no official blog, AFAIK.
There are only about 6-8 active developers right now. This is not counting the people at Algoriddim or Keysight who do occasionally submit PRs. It's difficult to know when, also, to put someone else's work up as news as they may not be ready for it to be reviewed. In other words... we are vastly under manned. :) So, it's not really easy to coordinate these things.
You have a Twitter feed, but you mostly post US politics stuff. As it
happens I agree with your sentiments on that, but I am not American and
it's not my argument. Not my circus, not my monkey, as they say in
Polish. You might alienate people with the political stuff.
Very true. If you have noticed, things are a bit weird here in the states on that spectrum, but we won't discuss that here. I should keep the politics out of the mix. I have questions about using X/Twitter in generate since was bought because it doesn't seem that people are really listening there anymore.
I suggest
that you don't and split your presence there into a personal account and
a GNUstep account.
I have considered doing that, but the account is better known as a source for GNUstep related information. I will start posting more of that.
I saw 2 blog posts in the last month; both seem to have been deleted and
just say
I had one post that was a little bit harsh against a recent client due to their misunderstanding of "Free Software" as the person who ran the company thought that because I was their "liaison" to GNUstep that the work done on GNUstep on their behalf was free. That's why that one was missing.
«
Sorry, the page you were looking for in this blog does not exist.
»
Similar to X/Twitter... I will start making more posts. I have also been considering making YouTube videos. I already have some...
Some videos on that channel are by my son. :). But I am generally making more GS related videos on it.
> This is already having
> negative repercussions for the project.
>
>
> Can you be specific?
Yes, in the next line, which you quote.
>
> For example the 2 most visible projects to offer replacements for
> Apple macOS do not use GNUstep:
>
> https://hellosystem.github.io/docs/ <https://hellosystem.github.io/
> docs/>
>
>
> Probono realized after doing his live cd that taking GNUstep the rest of
> the way involved ACTUAL work that he was unwilling to do.
Er, look, you may be right and you may be wrong, but that is not a
productive way to build community.
You mean calling Probono out for what he actually did? Look... I get what you mean. And, most days, I am very positive. A veritable CHEERLEADER for this project because I love it so deeply. By the same token it bothers me when people simply try it and immediately ABANDON it and don't give us any feedback or clue why they did so. This happens to us quite often, so it's difficult for me to hold back my frustration when it happens in cases like hellosystem and it's so blatant.
Hellosystem, while interesting on some levels, is no competitor to GNUstep because
> Yes, I am > calling you out Probono if you happen to read this list.
>
> https://ravynos.com/ <https://ravynos.com/>
>
>
> While I respect her effort to re-create macOS that is not
> GNUstep's goal.
That is open to more debate than you realise, and that is one of the
core problems of the project.
No, it's not. I'm the lead and I have the agreement of the core developers. It's a development environment and not a desktop because WE SAY SO. I don't seek to prevent anyone from doing it on the project, but the fact of the matter is, there are people who are better aligned with the goal of creating a desktop than the core project is.
> The goal of this project is to create a cross-platform > API, not a
desktop.
(REALLY ong car analogy removed... see original post to read)
To your point... the desktop environments being done by the interested parties: GSDE, Gershwin, NEXTSPACE... are better than we can manage to do as the core developers. Those guys are FOCUSED on making desktops. I am not advocating a "build it yourself" type of thing. What I believe our best goal is is to focus on making the frameworks and the development tools (Gorm, PC, and associated tools) the best they can be.
This is a similar relationship to GNOME and GTK and other frameworks/desktops out there. GNUstep does not have the advantage of being adopted by major distros as their default GUI. Believe it or not this was supposed to be the case. The FSF planned on using GNUstep as it's MAIN development and desktop environment, but when GNOME was introduced it stole our thunder. :) Long story which I won't get into here... but Miguel De Icaza was once a member of GS. I'll leave it there.
Also... what we do is analogous to what some companies that make cars do. Mitsubishi, for instance, provides the engines for MANY automakers, but they don't make the car. That's what we do. We make the ENGINE that makes things go.
> Additionally ravynos is based on the
> now defunct cocotron project whose code has not been updated in 8+
> years.
Doesn't matter. They're getting way more attention than you. People are
trying it.
I'm not so sure. We are being used by multiple open-source and Free Software projects as well as by companies such as Keysight (on Linux/Windows) and by Algorridim (Linux/Windows/Android) and they make it known that they use us. Also, when porting apps or writing new ones, the APIs are of prime importance. Users care about what apps they can run.
> Seems... I dunno... rather *UNIMPLEMENTED* LOL... it does not inspire my
> confidence in rayvnOS as a whole.
I tried it. It won't even boot in a VM. It's not even a prototype yet.
And yet, in the last month or two...
https://blog.desdelinux.net/en/ravynos-a-freebsd-with-macos-flavor/
https://debugpointnews.com/ravynos-5-freebsd/
https://x.com/ElBlogDeLazaro/status/1795495500520583308
https://news.tuxmachines.org/n/2024/05/29/ravynOS_A_macOS_Inspired_FreeBSD_Based_Desktop.shtml
You need eyes. All software needs users. No community = no free software
Oh... agreed. And by letting the people who make desktops make the best ones they can, we will get that.
> This is utter BS and you know it, Liam.
https://www.apple.com/us/search/cocoa?src="">
Note: the programming API is not there.
You're delusional. Also, it doesn't matter what THEY call it. Whatever Apple calls it doesn't matter. They referred to it as Cocoa, it's still under the Cocoa.h header on macOS. And many programmers refer to it as Cocoa. A rose by any other name... call it "The macOS frameworks" or "The macOS development environment." Quit the stupidity... PLEASE.
Support site:
https://support.apple.com/kb/index?page=search&type=organic&src="">
10.5 and 10.7. Nothing newer than 2011.
It's not helpful to use a name the owner of that name stopped using
nearly a decade and a half ago.
It's also not helpful to refer to it as OPENSTEP as you did in an article a while back given that Apple no longer mentions that either.
I have no side in this, no stake, no skin in the game. I don't care. I
am just trying to point out that the name is dead.
As is OPENSTEP and NeXTSTEP as you used in that poorly written article. So stop using those too when referring to GNUstep. Alright?
>
> This is a link to the language repo, not proof ObjC is being replaced.
https://www.reddit.com/r/iOSProgramming/comments/uq2o5k/does_anyone_still_use_objectivec_in_their_ios_app/
Note:
https://www.reddit.com/r/iOSProgramming/comments/uq2o5k/comment/i8p0be6/
All of Apple's frameworks are still written in ObjC. Also, there is a technical reason why doing so is better. If you look in the framework headers there is a YAML file called FRAMEWORKNAME.apinotes. (where FRAMEWORKNAME is AppKit, Foundation, etc). This file is a lazily loaded file used by the Swift compiler to help do the code generation for Swift - ObjC interoperability. So... when Apple writes a framework in ObjC they get the advantage of being able to use it under both languages instead of JUST swift.
Also, you'll excuse me if I don't take the word of people on reddit as anything official.
«
It's helpful for an iOS developer to know ObjC and at least be able to
read it, but if you start a fresh iOS code base today, there's pretty
much no reason to drop down to ObjC for sections of your code unless
there's some specific interoperability stuff you need to do.
»
It's over. It's dying.
Again: no stake, but it's over.
I have my ear to the ground. I know what's happening. But given that I understand the TECHNICAL details behind how this stuff is implemented, there is NO reason for GNUstep to drop ObjC any time soon. Apple still uses it and until they announce WHOLE NEW frameworks re-written in Swift (which is unlikely since this will also mean they give up all of the fixes, etc, that have happened over the 30+ year history of the framework)... it isn't likely ObjC is going anywhere soon.
See, I can do the same thing and look stuff up that proves my point too...
It is OBVIOUS that we will not get an ObjC2.1 or 3.0. It's also obvious that Apple is focusing on Swift as many programmers find the language easier to understand and learn. I get it. But, PLEASE, as a non-programmer, refrain from telling US (the people writing the actual code) what language we should use as the core part of our frameworks.
I am doing work on getting swift integrated, but the core frameworks shall NOT be re-written in Swift. Apple hasn't done it, neither will this project. Also... there is a huge installed base of existing ObjC out there for programmers to use. Also, interesting to note, both of the companies I mentioned currently use ObjC in their main products.
Please don't tell us something is Over, when you have, as you said, NO SKIN IN THE GAME. :)
--
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
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Yours, GC
Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / Black Lotus, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
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GNUstep Lead Developer / Black Lotus, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
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