Re: scrollbars [was: Re: really attracting developers]

[Richard Frith-Macdonald]

On 5 Sep 2006, at 01:23, Andrew Ruder wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 05, 2006 at 09:34:04AM +1000, phil taylor wrote:
> > I am dissapointed that the GNUstep project is devoted to its UI  
> > design.
> > I had hoped the most important aspect was the API, not the look  
> > and feel
> > of the GUI. IT will never suit me. I HATE menus, especially cascading
> > ones.
>
> This is an argument I've started with many people many times on the  
> IRC
> channel.  These days the UI style of GNUstep actually detracts from
> people wanting to use it.  While many people look at conforming with
> other toolkits look/feel as sacrificing features to become like
> everything else, I agree with you here.  The API and programming
> language (Objective-C) are really what would attract many  
> developers to
> GNUstep.  Making GNUstep look/feel like other toolkits doesn't  
> sacrifice
> anything important, IMO.  And don't get me started on app bundles and
> other filesystem related things.  I understand the benefits of these
> features, but as far as gaining popularity, they hurt more than they
> help.

First ... Once we get theming working the appearance of the UI is  
largely IRRELEVANT.

Second ... You may be right that the UI detracts from people wanting  
to use GNUstep.  Certainly we get plenty of complaints about the look  
of the gui, but we have no basis to tell whether we get more  
complaints with the NeXT look and feel than we would if we showed  
another look and feel.

Phil is just being making groundless assumptions when he complains  
that the GNUstep project is 'devoted to its UI design' ... since the  
project is actively moving forward on theming and few (no?) people  
argue against that, and while most of us probably like the NeXT UI (I  
haven't seen anything I like as much yet) that doesn't mean we aren't  
interested in trying new themes.

Of course, we (most developers) put the API first, but clearly, even  
though Phil says 'I had hoped the most important aspect was the API'  
he immediately contradicts that with 'not the look and feel of the  
GUI.  IT will never suit me'.

I'd like to suggest that, when people write to the list complaining  
about their personal GUI tastes not being catered for, people refrain  
from commenting on the UI stuff altogether and simply direct those  
people to join in on adding/improving theming in the gui library.   
The perennial debate about what's good/bad in a user interface is,  
IMO, just a waste of everyones time.