[Denemo-devel] Denemo-feedback

[Richard Shann]

On Tue, 2013-12-03 at 01:20 +0100, Noeck wrote:
> > But the feedback I get about Denemo is almost entirely positive - those
> > who find it unusable just quietly switch to something else, out of
> > politeness I guess. Most unhelpful!
> 
> Hi Richard,
> 
> several times now, I looked at Denemo (about twice a year for the last 4
> years). So I can only share a first impression. As background info: I
> probably always will prefer text input and I like Frescobaldi very much.
> But I think that a GUI is definitely needed for the average musician. My
> approach: A GUI program should be self explaining - I did not read the
> manual. Denemo version 0.9.2 (latest ubuntu).

sigh!, that is just over two years out of date. Like LilyPond we have
now started posting binaries for GNU/Linux on our website. I was using
ancient LilyPond versions until I finally posted to the LilyPond bug
list and got told about not depending on my distro for a LilyPond
installer. Is there anything we can do to alert people who would not
want to be using ancient versions if only they knew?

> 
> You asked for feedback, so here is my first impression (+ positive, - neg.):
> 
> Note entry:
> - So I open Denemo and I get asked about the input method (for most of
> them I don't know what they mean). I chose simple (this takes minutes,
> if I choose Lilypond, it hangs completely), but I am not intelligent
> enough to directly figure out how it works. I can enter notes with the
> mouse and hitting enter. Why can't I just click? The different cursors
> (for pitch and time-position) and their colours confuse me, why not one?
> I would find it more intuitive if I could click on a note to change it
> and between notes to insert something.

Here, it is difficult to respond. So much has changed and I only have
hazy recollections of what the program was like then... I think all of
those things are long fixed.


> + If I click on a note, it gets marked and I can add articulations,
> that's nice. Delete, arrows, etc. work as expected. I can change clefs
> and the key by clicking on them, that's good.
> 
> - I can not click on the barlines, barnumbers, slurs, beams,
> clef-changes to edit them

This remains true, except that nowadays you can click on slurs and other
things in the final typeset and do things to them there. I think of the
clicking with the mouse to do things as just something that gets people
started, for serious use I expect people to use the keyboard, as it is
quicker. 
(Perhaps I should add that for historical reasons, making things like
barlines, trills, etc. clickable is comparatively hard - the display is
still largely just a drawing as it was in 1999 (?) when the program was
created).

> 
> - I can add a slur, but it is not shown where I selected the notes but
> half a measure later.

??? sounds bizarre

> 
> - I thought, maybe I can move things (thats where a GUI could be
> advantageous over the text input), but dragging does not work

This is a GUI not a WYSIWYG display. That is, what you see is what you
mean, you can see what music you have entered, but not what the LilyPond
will typeset to look like. And that is, of course, absolutely
fundamental, and is why Denemo is unusual. You are trading WYSIWYG for
quality of typesetting - if you typeset as you enter the music either
you have to wait a long time between each keystroke or you have to put
up with poor typesetting which needs manual adjustments.

> 
> Look:
> - Why don't you use Fetafont symbols for the buttons and for objects
> (like the time signature)? It would look much nicer.

a good idea - I think they have been creeping in over the last couple of
years.

> 
> - I see a tilde ~ in front of each duration button symbol.
> 
> - The ~. symbol has no effect
> 
> - It also would make a better impression, if there were lots of toolbars
> (not that I like it, but I would give the impression that this is a
> powerful tool)

I think all that is ancient history now.

> 
> - There are so many menu items that I can only see 2 letters of each
> menu item. So I can only guess what's behind.

??? menus have been shortened (and deepened) a couple of times ... now
we have a searchable command center; we cannot add every LilyPond
feature into a hierarchical menu system.


> 
> - The score 'preview' is very far from Lilyponds good quality, that
> reduces the fun factor (compared to Frescobaldi, where I see nice scores
> while working)

On faster machines the LilyPond typeset can keep up (especially if you
set it to typeset just a portion of the score). This feature did get
announced on the LilyPond list.

> 
> - Everytime I insert a new note, I hear a very strange sound (like
> broken speakers) but that's perhaps a linux-only-problem.

Well, it is more specific than that, Denemo is mostly tested on
GNU/Linux systems, but sound systems vary and I think they can require
you to adjust the preferences - I certainly came across one case where
someone had changed the sample rate (because they thought it would
improve things) and the resultant mis-match made for comical listening.

> 
> + Lyrics work (even though the alignment does not look very good)
> 
> - LP does not distinguish between initial clefs and clef changes. Why do
> you?

That decision dates to the last millennium. You could ignore it and just
put a time signature at the start of the music. OTOH it does give
something to click on to sharpen/flatten the initial key signature.
(yes ... of course, it would be nicer to have this feature on key
signature changes too ...)


> 
> Output:
> - The ly source code contains only 2 notes and the rest is missing.
> Also, if I print it, only those two are shown. Where is the rest?

Hmm, that is ancient history too - it used to typeset the selection if
you had one ... I think you may still be able to typeset the selection,
but not without trying.



> - The ly source code is not in a state that I would want to use and
> change by hand later. Schikkers list impressed me, how clean the ly code
> looks.

It has improved too, but I am sure a lot of people will never want to
work with someone else's .ly text. That is why the direct output of raw
LilyPond notes was implemented recently.


> 
> Summary:
> While I appreciate that you took this approach, which I still think is
> needed, I am afraid, I don't see Denemo in a state where I could
> convince people to use it. And I myself would fear that I have entered a
> piece and then get stuck, because I want to switch to text edit and
> would have to clean up the code again. Schikkers list looks nicer (nicer
> symbols, toolbars, score layout, ly source code), even though it
> probably has not so many features.
> 
> I hope you are not disappointed about this feedback. I really appreciate
> your work! You can answer again to the list, if you like.

The only disappointment is that your trouble has been taken over
something that is so out of date. On the plus side, you have made me
aware of stuff which I haven't really thought about before (e.g. that
key signature changes could be more interactive).
Thank you very much!

Richard
> 
> Cheers,
> Joram