Re: [Bug-gnubg] Things I hate about the GnuBg GUI

[Holger]

At 12:49 29.08.2003 +0200, Morten Juul Henriksen wrote:
> Holger <address@hidden> wrote:
> > On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:43:19 +0200, Morten Juul Henriksen
> > wrote:
> > > 1. The =91Hint=92 window
> > > Sorting moves by the evaluation type is annoying. Even
> > blunders looks like =
> > > they=92re among the best moves. Please sort (default) by
> > equity. Maybe use =
> >
> > This is not practical and would be like comparing apples and
> > pears.
> > Also remember that the best moves of a lower ply get
> > promoted to
> > higher-ply analysis, so they were better than the other
> > moves. It can
> > be however that a higher ply gives quite a big equity
> > change.
>
> Yes, but since worst moves of lower ply doesn't make it to higher ply the 
> "apples and pears" have ALREADY been compared!

No, they were compared at the same ply, so they were still both apples.

> > > Is it really neassessary with all the evaluation and
> > rollout types (analysi=
> > > s, evaluation, hint)? Wouldn=92t it be better just to
> > popup a window (and l=
> > > et the user chose ply, rollout etc. in addition to a
> > =91last used=92 and th=
> > > e predefines =91expert=92, =91world class=92 etc.) when
> > evaluation is press=
> > > ed?
> >
> > I like not having to click lots of times, especially for a
> > much used
> > function.
>
> You wouldn't have to click lots of times if my suggestion was implemented 
> intelligently (only one more click actually). Also if you don't like 
> clicking the mouse you would use keyboard shortcuts anyways.

It would still be one more click. And if it should involve a popup I even 
couldn't set a shortcut to every function the popup then combines.

> > > Why do you have to chose =91rollout=92 or =91rollout cube
> > decision=92 ? Can=
> > > =92t GnuBg see if the dice have already been thrown? The
> > same goes for the =
> > > temp maps.
> >
> > What if you have a position with the dice already rolled,
> > but want a
> > cube decision rollout? Imho it's more convenient having two
> > options
> > instead of being forced to go to a board setup where one of
> > the
> > rollouts would be (more) appropriate.
>
> Since doubling after the dice have been rolled is illegal, why would you 
> want to do this? What if I want

Probably not during a match, but when reviewing. But it's no big deal, it's 
just one menu entry.

> > > 3. Analysis
> > > When an analysis is done, why not auto-popup the
> > statistics window? When wo=
> > > uld you not want to do this (except maybe when running a
> > script)?
> >
> > You have named already one point where it would interfere
> > horribly.
> > Also it's perfectly possible to step right through the match
> > and look
> > at the statistics only later or not at all.
>
> Yes, possible it is, but since you, as mentioned earlier, don't like 
> clicking....

I browse through the match with shortcuts. :-)

> > > On the menu =91analyse game=92, =91analyse match=92 should
> > be grouped like =
> > > =91clear analysis=92 is or, even better, popup a window
> > letting the user ch=
> > > ose all settings for the analysis.
> >
> > This would just cause more clicks. The latter would even
> > prevent from
> > creating shortcuts.
>
> My idea is that you don't HAVE to set all settings every time, but that 
> you should be ABLE to do so. Most of the time you would only need to click 
> one of some default settings or 'the same as last time'.

As it is right now, I have set my preferences once and start an analysis 
with _one_ shortcut. No mouse click, no popup, just directly.

> > > 5. Rolling the dice, moving checkers
> > > When you=92re on roll, why do you have to press the
> > relatively small area b=
> > > etween the points? Shouldn=92t it be enough just to press
> > your side (right)=
> > >  of the board?
> >
> > Between which points? Clicking on the right side where the
> > dice would
> > be causes them to be rolled.
>
> But why can't you just click anywhere to the right side of the bar? If you 
> for some reason use a small board it gets annoying the click a small area, 
> and i've talked to numerous people who, when trying out gnubg, didn't 
> understand why they couldn't roll the dice.

Ah, I think I know what space you mean. Sure when you set the board to 
really small it might require more aiming skills. But then how do you move 
the chequers?
And I'm not sure right now, but it could be a little tricky to implement. 
I'd have to look at gtkboard.c for this.

>  > > Left-click: I want to move THIS checker.
> >
> > With which die?
>
> The higher die first as default (Reminds me of an old JellyFish problem 
> but this is no problem because you can drag'n'drop in gnubg).
>
> > > Right-click: I want to move at least one checker HERE and
> > two if possible.
> >
> > Just put a double click on the middle mouse button in your
> > mouse
> > driver.
>
> Win32 use two-button mice only as standard. And most users will be running 
> gnubg on a win32-platform sadly.

Hmm, I have a 3-button-mouse and most (if not all) current models come with 
a wheel that can be clicked and works as a third mouse button.

> > > If I want to move 24/13 with a checker, I should only have
> > to right-click t=
> > > he 13 point (hitting a checker on the way if possible as
> > default).
> >
> > I like the assignment to higher/lower die better.
>
> But then you'll have to click more than needed.

In this case I think to prefer this. ;)

> Thanks a lot for answering. Of cause we might never agree, but I really 
> hope you will give my suggestions some thought. I forgot to mention that 
> my suggestions are not only my own but also suggestions from other players 
> in my area (three of them absolute worldclass players).

You're welcome. Btw, in case you're not aware of this, address@hidden is 
the mailing-list which is also archived at 
http://mail.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnubg/.

> Backgammonplayers are not in general IT-experts. So functions that seems 
> simple for the creators can be almost impossible to learn for the average 
> gnubg-user.

I'm definitely aware of this. But too much clicking and the likes is 
neither good. We don't want to scare away the (so called) power users. And 
if you didn't know it yet, there's a nice tutorial at 
http://www.bkgm.com/gnu/AllAboutGNU.html.

Regards,

        Holger