Re: [Axiom-developer] #pile vs. non-#pile

[Gabriel Dos Reis]

"Bill Page" <address@hidden> writes:

[...]

| > | But it's an old debate alright. Using indentation to represent
| > | (not just document) program structure was in fact proposed by
| > | Donald Knuth and several others 46 years ago!
| > 
| > well, given TeX's syntax, I would not claim his language syntax
| > design choices are always very spectacular, compared to his
| > strength at other computer science matters :-/
| 
| I think your argument is not strengthened when you choose to argue
| with spectacular success. If Knuth had invented MathML in the 1970's
| instead of TeX do you think he would be so widely known today? ;)

Yes.

| > [...]
| > 
| > | But there are some well known languages other than Python use
| > | indentation for program structure (notably: Haskell).
| > 
| > yes, and I hate it.  Two months ago I wasted whole day chasing
| > a bug in one of my Haskell programs, only to discover that it
| > was an indentation issue in an instance declaration.  That bug
| > happened after reformatting a correct, working, program. It is
| > a misfeature.
| > 
| 
| Get serious! Your experience is at best only anecdotal.

When discussing _language syntax_, what else can you expect except
personal experience?  Call it anectotal if you like, but syntax is a
primary tool to express ideas.  It should not get in the way.

| Programmers have collectively sent many days chasing bugs due to misplaced ;

and you probably heard of the cancer of semicolon.

| and logic errors hidden by meaninglessly indented code. 

a factual difference between semicolon and space is that I can count
semilcolon.  I can't count what I can't see.

| I don't know what you mean by "reformatting a correct, working
| program" but if your "reformatting" involved changing indentation,

yes.

| then how is that different from randomly moving { } symbols to other
| parts of your program?

I can count them.

| I think your problem with Haskell stems for simple lack
| of experience in programming in that language.

Sure, my name is not Simon Peyton Jones; but I don't think you have
enough data to back up your assertion :-)

| I would be very interested if you could point to any instance in
| the SPAD coding in the Axiom library of a logic error due to
| incorrect indentation.

That is a meaningless request.  Ask Tim what he thinks about the pile
syntax; he knows the Axiom library and worked on it. 

I'm just glad Adlor provided a better alternative.

-- Gaby