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www/philosophy rms-hack.html
|
From: |
Yavor Doganov |
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Subject: |
www/philosophy rms-hack.html |
|
Date: |
Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:57:19 +0000 |
CVSROOT: /web/www
Module name: www
Changes by: Yavor Doganov <yavor> 07/06/13 21:57:19
Modified files:
philosophy : rms-hack.html
Log message:
Validation fixes and the usual formatting changes.
CVSWeb URLs:
http://web.cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewcvs/www/philosophy/rms-hack.html?cvsroot=www&r1=1.3&r2=1.4
Patches:
Index: rms-hack.html
===================================================================
RCS file: /web/www/www/philosophy/rms-hack.html,v
retrieving revision 1.3
retrieving revision 1.4
diff -u -b -r1.3 -r1.4
--- rms-hack.html 9 Apr 2007 20:46:37 -0000 1.3
+++ rms-hack.html 13 Jun 2007 21:57:09 -0000 1.4
@@ -4,14 +4,16 @@
<!--#include virtual="/server/banner.html" -->
-<h2>The Hacker Community and Ethics: An Interview with Richard M. Stallman,
2002.</h2>
+<h2>The Hacker Community and Ethics: An Interview with Richard M. Stallman,
2002</h2>
-<p>by Richard Stallman</p>
-<p>Published in Finnish in Tere Vadén & Richard M. Stallman: <a
- href="http://www.uta.fi/%7Efiteva/koodivapaaksi.html";> Koodi vapaaksi -
Hakkerietiikan vaativuus</a>,
-Tampere University Press. 2002, sivut 62-80.</p>
+<p>by <strong>Richard Stallman</strong></p>
+<p><em>Published in Finnish in Tere Vadén & Richard
+M. Stallman: <a href="http://www.uta.fi/%7Efiteva/koodivapaaksi.html";>
+Koodi vapaaksi - Hakkerietiikan vaativuus</a>, Tampere University
+Press. 2002, sivut 62-80.</em></p>
+
+<h3>Hackerism</h3>
-<h4>Hackerism</h4>
<p>Tere Vadén (<b>TV</b>): One of the most striking features of your
approach to the issues of technology and software and so on is that
you consider ethical and social matters more important than possible
@@ -21,213 +23,227 @@
Am I guessing right if I believe that you are thinking off ethical
issues in terms of communities?</p>
-<p>Richard M. Stallman (<b>RMS</b>): Yes. The way I reached my conclusions
about
-which freedoms are essential for using software, and which kinds of
-license requirements are acceptable, is by thinking about whether they
-would interfere<br>
-with the kinds of use of the software that are necessary to have a
-functioning community.</P>
-
-<p><b>TV:</b> The idea of free software was born out of your experiences at
MIT,
-and how that community was infiltrated and in some sense destroyed by
-commercial interests.</p>
+<p>Richard M. Stallman (<b>RMS</b>): Yes. The way I reached my
+conclusions about which freedoms are essential for using software, and
+which kinds of license requirements are acceptable, is by thinking
+about whether they would interfere with the kinds of use of the
+software that are necessary to have a functioning community.</p>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> The idea of free software was born out of your
+experiences at <abbr title="Massachusetts Institute of Technology">
+MIT</abbr>, and how that community was infiltrated and in some sense
+destroyed by commercial interests.</p>
<p><b>RMS:</b> Yes, that is correct. The hackers really enjoyed the freedom to
share and change software; that was the basis for our free-wheeling
community.</p>
<p>
-<b>TV:</b> What does the word 'hacker' mean to you, personally?</p>
+<b>TV:</b> What does the word ‘hacker’ mean to you,
+personally?</p>
<p>
-<b>RMS:</b> It means someone who enjoys playful cleverness, especially in
-programming but other media are also possible. In the 14th century,
+<b>RMS:</b> It means someone who enjoys playful cleverness, especially
+in programming but other media are also possible. In the 14th century,
Guillaume de Machaut wrote a palindromic three-part musical
-composition. It sounded good, too--I think I played in it once, because
-I still remember one of the parts. I think that was a good hack. I
-heard somewhere that J. S. Bach did something similar.<br />
-One possible arena for playful cleverness is breaking security. Hackers
-never had much respect for bureaucratic restrictions. If the computer
-was sitting idle because the administrators wouldn't let them use it,
-they would sometimes figure out how to bypass the obstacles and use it
-anyway. If this required cleverness, it would be fun in itself, as well
-as making it possible to do other hacking (for instance, useful work)
-on the computer instead of twiddling one's thumbs. But not all hackers
-did security breaking. Many never were interested in that.<br />
+composition. It sounded good, too—I think I played in it once,
+because I still remember one of the parts. I think that was a good
+hack. I heard somewhere that J. S. Bach did something similar.<br />
+One possible arena for playful cleverness is breaking
+security. Hackers never had much respect for bureaucratic
+restrictions. If the computer was sitting idle because the
+administrators wouldn't let them use it, they would sometimes figure
+out how to bypass the obstacles and use it anyway. If this required
+cleverness, it would be fun in itself, as well as making it possible
+to do other hacking (for instance, useful work) on the computer
+instead of twiddling one's thumbs. But not all hackers did security
+breaking. Many never were interested in that.<br />
On the Incompatible Timesharing System, the operating system developed
by the AI lab's hackers, we made it unnecessary to break security: we
simply did not implement security in the system. The hackers realized
that security would be a mechanism for the administrators to dominate
us. So we never game them the means.</p>
<p>
-<b>TV:</b> How about the concepts of freedom and community? There's this idea
-that freedom to distribute ideas, thoughts, recipes and software
-creates the best kinds of communities or at least better than those
-based on commercial limitations on distribution and sharing.</p>
+<b>TV:</b> How about the concepts of freedom and community? There's
+this idea that freedom to distribute ideas, thoughts, recipes and
+software creates the best kinds of communities or at least better than
+those based on commercial limitations on distribution and sharing.</p>
<p>
<b>RMS:</b> I think it is a mistake to label these restrictions as
-"commercial", because that pertains to the motive for the restrictions.
-The same restrictions, if imposed for a different motive, would do the
-same harm. What matters is the restrictions, not the motive. Commercial
-software can be free or non-free, just as noncommercial software can be
-free or non-free. It only depends on the license.</p>
+“commercial”, because that pertains to the motive for the
+restrictions. The same restrictions, if imposed for a different
+motive, would do the same harm. What matters is the restrictions, not
+the motive. Commercial software can be free or non-free, just as
+noncommercial software can be free or non-free. It only depends on the
+license.</p>
<p>
<b>TV:</b> How would you delineate the distinction between the public
(communal, freedom-based) and the commercial spheres?</p>
-<P><b>RMS:</b> Comparing free with commercial is like comparing happiness with
+<p><b>RMS:</b> Comparing free with commercial is like comparing happiness with
purple. It doesn't make sense, because they are not answers to the same
question. They are not alternatives. The meaningful comparison is
between free and non-free software.</p>
-<P><b>TV:</b> It seems that the distinction between "open source" and "free
-software" is that the open source movement ultimately justifies the
-idea on utilitarian grounds; open source is the best way of producing
-functional software; while the ultimate justification for free software
-is non-calculative, non-utilitarian; freedom is unviolable. Is that a
-correct interpretation?</p>
-
-<P><b>RMS:</b> More or less. I would say that freedom has value in itself, just
-as powerful reliable software does.</p>
-
-<P><b>TV:</b> But isn't there a problem here; one of the utilitarian
calculations
-of "open source" is that it is more profitable - in the sense of making
-more money or making better softaware - to use an open source license
-than a copyleft license. A company like Apple or Nokia will adapt open
-source up to point, precisely the point where making it more free would
-turn the profitability down.</p>
-
-<P><b>RMS:</b> I agree that it is wrong for these decisions (about your freedom
-and mine) to be made by the software developer for the sake of his
-profit, just as the decision about whether you and I have freedom of
-speech should not be made by some third party for his own interests.<br />
+<p><b>TV:</b> It seems that the distinction between “open
+source” and “free software” is that the open source
+movement ultimately justifies the idea on utilitarian grounds; open
+source is the best way of producing functional software; while the
+ultimate justification for free software is non-calculative,
+non-utilitarian; freedom is unviolable. Is that a correct
+interpretation?</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> More or less. I would say that freedom has value in
+itself, just as powerful reliable software does.</p>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> But isn't there a problem here; one of the utilitarian
+calculations of “open source” is that it is more
+profitable — in the sense of making more money or making better
+softaware — to use an open source license than a copyleft
+license. A company like Apple or Nokia will adapt open source up to
+point, precisely the point where making it more free would turn the
+profitability down.</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> I agree that it is wrong for these decisions (about
+your freedom and mine) to be made by the software developer for the
+sake of his profit, just as the decision about whether you and I have
+freedom of speech should not be made by some third party for his own
+interests.<br />
I am not going to condemn someone who does the right thing for the
wrong reason, but it is true that relying on people to respect our
freedom because it is profitable for them to do so is not a reliable
system for protecting our freedom. This is the reason why we must
reduce the political power of business.</p>
-<P><b>TV:</b> The argument that a company would use, of course, is that the
-profit it creates ultimately benefits the whole society. How would you
-respond to that?</p>
-
-<P><b>RMS:</b> That is a claim with no basis. A non-free program can only
benefit
-those who don't value their freedom, and thus serves as a temptation
-for people to give up their freedom. That is harmful to society.</p>
+<p><b>TV:</b> The argument that a company would use, of course, is
+that the profit it creates ultimately benefits the whole society. How
+would you respond to that?</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> That is a claim with no basis. A non-free program can
+only benefit those who don't value their freedom, and thus serves as a
+temptation for people to give up their freedom. That is harmful to
+society.</p>
-<P><b>TV:</b> There is also this question of individual/private vs
+<p><b>TV:</b> There is also this question of individual/private vs
public/communal here. It is often in the interests of the individual to
-do something that threatens the community, threatens freedom. </p>
+do something that threatens the community, threatens freedom.</p>
-<P><b>RMS:</b> I know. This is why we need to think about right and wrong in
+<p><b>RMS:</b> I know. This is why we need to think about right and wrong in
making our decisions, and also the reason why societies have a notion
of punishing actions that hurt the community.</p>
-<P><b>TV:</b> Now, somebody like Torvalds - and we don't necessarily have to
use
-any names here - would probably share your enthusiasm about hackerism
-in the sense of playful cleverness, and would take that playful
-cleverness also to the area of being clever in making money and
-enjoying the good life. Actually that is what he hints at in a recent
-book called "The Hacker Ethics". </p>
-
-<P><b>RMS:</b> That is true. Just because someone enjoys hacking does not mean
he
-has an ethical commitment to treating other people properly. Some
-hackers care about ethics--I do, for instance--but that is not part of
-being a hacker, it is a separate trait. Some stamp collectors care a
-lot about ethics, while other stamp collectors don't. It is the same
-for hackers.<br />
+<p><b>TV:</b> Now, somebody like Torvalds — and we don't
+necessarily have to use any names here — would probably share
+your enthusiasm about hackerism in the sense of playful cleverness,
+and would take that playful cleverness also to the area of being
+clever in making money and enjoying the good life. Actually that is
+what he hints at in a recent book called “The Hacker
+Ethics”.</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> That is true. Just because someone enjoys hacking does
+not mean he has an ethical commitment to treating other people
+properly. Some hackers care about ethics—I do, for
+instance—but that is not part of being a hacker, it is a
+separate trait. Some stamp collectors care a lot about ethics, while
+other stamp collectors don't. It is the same for hackers.<br />
I agree with the person who said that there is no hacker ethic, but
rather a hacker aesthetic.</p>
-<P><b>TV:</b> Now, if one wants to avoid the negative consequences of the
+<p><b>TV:</b> Now, if one wants to avoid the negative consequences of the
profit-orieted business, it feels that one has to give the individual a
good reason for not looking after only his or her own best. And that
-something, that reason, might be something in the public sphere. </p>
+something, that reason, might be something in the public sphere.</p>
-<P><b>RMS:</b> Of course--but why are you treating this as if it were a new
idea
-that can only be hinted at. This idea is thousands of years old. This
-is the basic idea of ethics.</p>
-
-<P><b>TV:</b> The question about hacker aesthetics --- as you explained, there
is
-no special hacker ethics, because a hacker can act ethically or
-unethically and nothing in hackerism itself necessitates ethical
-behaviour.</p>
+<p><b>RMS:</b> Of course—but why are you treating this as if it
+were a new idea that can only be hinted at. This idea is thousands of
+years old. This is the basic idea of ethics.</p>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> The question about hacker aesthetics — as you
+explained, there is no special hacker ethics, because a hacker can act
+ethically or unethically and nothing in hackerism itself necessitates
+ethical behaviour.</p>
-<P><b>RMS:</b> Hacking is not primarily about an ethical issue. It is an idea
of
+<p><b>RMS:</b> Hacking is not primarily about an ethical issue. It is an idea
of
what makes life meaningful. But he may be right that hacking tends to
lead a significant number of hackers to think about ethical questions
in a certain way. I would not want to completely deny all connection
between hacking and views on ethics.</p>
-<br />
+<p>
Although someone said that there was a hacker aesthetic rather than a
-hacker ethic, I think "aesthetic" is not quite the right word either.
-An aesthetic is an idea of what is beautiful. This is an idea of what
-is exciting and meaningful. Is there a word for that? I can think of
-"the hacker way", but that sounds rather pompous and new-age.</p>
-<br>
-<h4>Community</h4>
-
-<P><b>TV:</b> Now that brings to mind several questions. For the first, one
could
-maybe inquire after an ideal society or do forth, but let's leave that
-for the moment.</p>
-
-<P><b>RMS:</b> I approach these issues incrementally. I don't think I could try
-to design an ideal society and have any confidence in the conclusion.
-Attempts to propose a society quite different from the ones we know
-often tend to be disastrously flawed. So instead I propose local
-changes which I have some reason to believe are good. Note that I
-didn't imagine the free software community on my own--if I had, I would
-not be so confident it is a good idea. I knew that from having tried it.</p>
+hacker ethic, I think “aesthetic” is not quite the right
+word either. An aesthetic is an idea of what is beautiful. This is an
+idea of what is exciting and meaningful. Is there a word for that? I
+can think of “the hacker way”, but that sounds rather
+pompous and new-age.</p>
+
+<h3>Community</h3>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> Now that brings to mind several questions. For the
+first, one could maybe inquire after an ideal society or do forth, but
+let's leave that for the moment.</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> I approach these issues incrementally. I don't think I
+could try to design an ideal society and have any confidence in the
+conclusion. Attempts to propose a society quite different from the
+ones we know often tend to be disastrously flawed. So instead I
+propose local changes which I have some reason to believe are
+good. Note that I didn't imagine the free software community on my
+own—if I had, I would not be so confident it is a good idea. I
+knew that from having tried it.</p>
-<P><b>TV:</b> Is there something that digitalization offers for
+<p><b>TV:</b> Is there something that digitalization offers for
community-building, something that other media (like printed books)
-could not offer, or does digitalization mean 'just' and effectivization
-of existing means?</p>
+could not offer, or does digitalization mean ‘just’ and
+effectivization of existing means?</p>
-<P><b>RMS:</b> Computers and the web make it much easier to work
collaboratively
-and continuing to improve publications. I think that this will become
-even more true in the future, as people develop better ways to do it.
-The proprietary mindset might as well be precisely calculated to
-deprive us of this benefit of the Internet.</p>
-
-<P><b>TV:</b> Now, from a historical and philosophical perspective it seems
that
-many a good invention or technological advance has resulted in the
-intesification of colonialization </p>
-
-<P><b>RMS:</b> In general, technology is a good thing, and we shouldn't turn it
-down. Technology tends to cause cultural change. This is not necessarily a
-bad thing, and we should not condemn it in a blanket fashion. There are
-just certain specific kinds of cultural change that we need to oppose.</p>
-
-<P><b>TV:</b> I do not necessarily want to get stuck on this public/commercial
-issue, but if we say that we need communal agreements, values and
-systems that tone down the selfishness of the individual, and we say
-that the commercial world systematically has a tendency to promote
-selfishness, then I guess we have to conclude that there is a crucial
-distinction between the communal and the commercial?</p>
-
-<P><b>RMS:</b> I would agree. One person can belong to a community and work in
a
-business at the same time. Nevertheless, there is a fundamental
-conflict between the communitarian attitude and the commercial attitude.
-I would not say that the communitarian attitude is good and the
-commercial attitude is bad. It makes no sense to aim to eliminate the
-commercial attitude, because that is simply selfishness, and
-selfishness is vital. People must be selfish to a certain extent, just
-as they ought to be altruistic to a certain extent. To abolish
-selfishness would not make sense, even if it were possible.</p>
-
-<P><b>TV:</b> I mean, in many ways one could say that the communities in the
-post-industrial countries these days are based on commercialism, i.e.,
-people get together, work, communicate etc. mostly because of
-commercial reasons.</p>
+<p><b>RMS:</b> Computers and the web make it much easier to work
+collaboratively and continuing to improve publications. I think that
+this will become even more true in the future, as people develop
+better ways to do it. The proprietary mindset might as well be
+precisely calculated to deprive us of this benefit of the
+Internet.</p>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> Now, from a historical and philosophical perspective it
+seems that many a good invention or technological advance has resulted
+in the intesification of colonialization </p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> In general, technology is a good thing, and we
+shouldn't turn it down. Technology tends to cause cultural
+change. This is not necessarily a bad thing, and we should not condemn
+it in a blanket fashion. There are just certain specific kinds of
+cultural change that we need to oppose.</p>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> I do not necessarily want to get stuck on this
+public/commercial issue, but if we say that we need communal
+agreements, values and systems that tone down the selfishness of the
+individual, and we say that the commercial world systematically has a
+tendency to promote selfishness, then I guess we have to conclude that
+there is a crucial distinction between the communal and the
+commercial?</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> I would agree. One person can belong to a community and
+work in a business at the same time. Nevertheless, there is a
+fundamental conflict between the communitarian attitude and the
+commercial attitude. I would not say that the communitarian attitude
+is good and the commercial attitude is bad. It makes no sense to aim
+to eliminate the commercial attitude, because that is simply
+selfishness, and selfishness is vital. People must be selfish to a
+certain extent, just as they ought to be altruistic to a certain
+extent. To abolish selfishness would not make sense, even if it were
+possible.</p>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> I mean, in many ways one could say that the communities
+in the post-industrial countries these days are based on
+commercialism, i.e., people get together, work, communicate
+etc. mostly because of commercial reasons.</p>
-<P><b>RMS:</b> This is a rather weak and ineffective kind of community, hardly
-worthy of the name.</p>
+<p><b>RMS:</b> This is a rather weak and ineffective kind of
+community, hardly worthy of the name.</p>
-<P><b>TV:</b> And, furthermore, like you know, the research and university
+<p><b>TV:</b> And, furthermore, like you know, the research and university
community is also very tightly bound to the economical interests of the
nations states and of the companies,</p>
-<P><b>RMS:</b> Universities ought to resist being turned to commercial
purposes,
-for the sake of their integrity. They have failed to resist.
+<p><b>RMS:</b> Universities ought to resist being turned to commercial
+purposes, for the sake of their integrity. They have failed to resist.
People will always be partly selfish; to keep selfishness from
engulfing society, we need unselfish institutions such as universities
and democratic governments to balance the selfishness and put a check
@@ -235,177 +251,194 @@
society, crushing the other institutions that were designed to put a
check on it.</p>
-<P><b>TV:</b> But, the counter argument goes, a free market economy that seeks
to
-maximize profit, is the only way of producing wealth and functioning
-democratic communities.</p>
-
-<P><b>RMS:</b> The free software community shows, as cooperatives in Sweden
-showed, that this is not true. There are other ways of producing
-wealth. But beyond that, producing wealth is not the be-all and end-all
-of a good society. There is no need to bend every aspect of life to
-maximizing the total wealth. The idea of sacrificing everything else to the
production of
-wealth--regardless of who gets to share in it!--is exactly what's wrong
-with the WTO. As for producing functioning democratic communities,
-allowing commerce to dominate not only fails to do that, it is directly
-antagonistic to that.</p>
-
-<P><b>TV:</b> If ethics applies to everyone, and ethics is based on community,
-does this mean that there is an ideal community to which everyone
-should belong?</p>
-
-<P><b>RMS:</b> I don't think that follows.</p>
-
-<h4>Copyleft</h4>
-
-<P><b>TV:</b> The concept of copyleft is a brilliant tool for the communal
-purposes. Could you tell a little on how you arrived at the idea?</p>
-
-<P><b>RMS:</b> I had seen simple notices of the form "verbatim copying
permitted
-provided this notice is preserved", and investigated extending this to
-handle modification as well.</p>
-
-<P><b>TV:</b> Let's take a case here. I can see that a free software developer
-might be able to make a living by doing free software, because people
-would pay for the software, pay for the manuals, pay for the joy of
-being a part of the community, and so on. I don't think that is
-impossible. The same might go for certain musicians, even scientists
-and so on. But howabout a writer, a poet, even a musician that works in
-a very limited language area - say, finnish. Making free software or
-free music or free poetry will not be a viable option, beacuse the
-community is too small to support that kind of activity.</p>
-
-<P><b>RMS:</b> The current system does rather a bad job of supporting these
-activities. To replace it with nothing at all would not make things
-much worse for these people. However, I think that voluntary methods of
support could do just as
-good a job as the present system--maybe better.</p>
+<p><b>TV:</b> But, the counter argument goes, a free market economy
+that seeks to maximize profit, is the only way of producing wealth and
+functioning democratic communities.</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> The free software community shows, as cooperatives in
+Sweden showed, that this is not true. There are other ways of
+producing wealth. But beyond that, producing wealth is not the be-all
+and end-all of a good society. There is no need to bend every aspect
+of life to maximizing the total wealth. The idea of sacrificing
+everything else to the production of wealth—regardless of who
+gets to share in it!—is exactly what's wrong with the WTO. As
+for producing functioning democratic communities, allowing commerce to
+dominate not only fails to do that, it is directly antagonistic to
+that.</p>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> If ethics applies to everyone, and ethics is based on
+community, does this mean that there is an ideal community to which
+everyone should belong?</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> I don't think that follows.</p>
+
+<h3>Copyleft</h3>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> The concept of copyleft is a brilliant tool for the
+communal purposes. Could you tell a little on how you arrived at the
+idea?</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> I had seen simple notices of the form “verbatim
+copying permitted provided this notice is preserved”, and
+investigated extending this to handle modification as well.</p>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> Let's take a case here. I can see that a free software
+developer might be able to make a living by doing free software,
+because people would pay for the software, pay for the manuals, pay
+for the joy of being a part of the community, and so on. I don't think
+that is impossible. The same might go for certain musicians, even
+scientists and so on. But howabout a writer, a poet, even a musician
+that works in a very limited language area — say,
+Finnish. Making free software or free music or free poetry will not be
+a viable option, beacuse the community is too small to support that
+kind of activity.</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> The current system does rather a bad job of supporting
+these activities. To replace it with nothing at all would not make
+things much worse for these people. However, I think that voluntary
+methods of support could do just as good a job as the present
+system—maybe better.</p>
-<P><b>TV:</b> This seems to lead to some kind of "americanization" or
-"anglization".</p>
+<p><b>TV:</b> This seems to lead to some kind of
+“americanization” or “anglization”.</p>
-<P><b>RMS:</b> You can't be serious, can you? Don't you realize that the
+<p><b>RMS:</b> You can't be serious, can you? Don't you realize that the
media-copyright complex is fueling the americanization of culture
around the world? Disconnecting that complex would do a lot to improve
the situation.</p>
-<P><b>TV:</b> I was just thinking of the fact that in a small langauge area
-something like copyrights actually do some good for creative work.</p>
-
-<P><b>RMS:</b> Not much good, though. How many Finnish writers make a living
from
-copyright today? Note that I don't advocate the simple and total abolition of
copyright
-for all kinds of works. See my speech, <a
href="/philosophy/copyright-and-globalization.html">Copyright
+<p><b>TV:</b> I was just thinking of the fact that in a small langauge
+area something like copyrights actually do some good for creative
+work.</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> Not much good, though. How many Finnish writers make a
+living from copyright today? Note that I don't advocate the simple and
+total abolition of copyright for all kinds of works. See my
+speech, <a href="/philosophy/copyright-and-globalization.html">Copyright
and Globalization</a>.</p>
-<h4>Globalisation </h4>
+<h3>Globalization </h3>
-<P><b>TV:</b> You have touched on some issues of globalization is some recent
-interviews. One of the problems is that copyright laws put many third
-world countries in an unfavourable position. Do you think that those
-countries should not follow the copyright laws?</p>
-
-<P><b>RMS:</b> The US when it was a developing country did not recognize
foreign
-copyrights. So why should anyone else? Of course, we know the reason
-why: it is part of a system of economic domination that the wealthiest
-business owners have imposed on the rest of the world.</p>
-
-<P><b>TV:</b> And, furthermore, could one see this issue also in terms of
-communities? If I remember correctly, you have said that globalization
-in the economic sense does not seem to be a good way of promoting or
-distributing well-being.</p>
-
-<P><b>RMS:</b> There is nothing wrong with globalization in the abstract. What
-makes today's form of globalization so bad is not really the global
-aspect of it. It is that the WTO/IMF system subordinates all other
-interests to the interests of business. Laws to protect the
-environment, public health, workers' rights, and the general standard
-of living, are regularly swept aside. The result is a major transfer of
-wealth from most people to business owners. Paradoxically, it seems to
-be accompanied by reduced growth as well. The best way to understand today's
-"globalization" is as a system to transfer power from democratic governments to
-business, which only incidentally happens to be global. Elimination of trade
-barriers could be a good thing if accompanied by global labor standards, global
-environmental standards, global health care, a global minimum wage (even if
not uniform),
-and global income taxes. If these were enforced world-wide with the same
energy that the
-US pressures countries to use for copyright enforcement, we could have
-global trade, clean factories, and high wages. The world-wide free software
community is an example of beneficial globalization: people share knowledge
with the whole world.</p>
-
-<h4>Ethics</h4>
-
-<P><b>TV:</b> How is ethcial "work" best done? It seems that you often invoke
-teachers like Buddha or Jesus as examples of a ethical way of life, </p>
-
-<P><b>RMS:</b> I never invoke Jesus. I am not a Christian and I don't
especially
-admire Jesus. I admire Buddha somewhat more, but I don't invoke any
-teacher or hero as an *authority*, only perhaps as an *example*.</p>
-
-<P><b>TV:</b> It is also clear that one of the fascinating and influential
-features of your work is that you live as you teach. Is that a
-conscious decision in the sense that you think that ethics is something
-that can be taught best through example?</p>
-
-<P><b>RMS:</b> Not at all. I do write about my ethical ideas, and I would like
to
-do it more and better if I could. Of course, it is necessary to live in
-conformity with one's principles, or one is a hypocrite and people can
-see that.</p>
-
-<P><b>TV:</b> If we say that the reason for ethical behaviour must be given in
-the public sphere, let's say through a social contract or something
-similar, and if we at the same time notice that the
-economical/commercial sphere is driven by "maximum profit"-type of
-principles, then we have to have some sort of separation between the
-public and the commercial world.</p>
-
-<P><b>RMS:</b> I don't follow this reasoning--I see no separation. Ethics
applies
-to everyone, and the whole point of ethics is that some things you
-might selfishly wish to do are wrong, so you may not do them. This
-applies to group selfishness just as as to personal selfishness.</p>
-
-<P><b>TV:</b> ... and then the commercial world would be something that almost
by
-necessity corrupts the idea of freedom.</p>
-
-<P><b>RMS:</b> Business does have that tendency. Corporations provide a
mechanism
-to distill the selfishness out of people who, as individuals, are
-partly selfish but also have ethics to limit their selfishness. The
-result is selfishness that can often be unchecked by any ethics. To change this
-will require taking away the power of global business over governments.</p>
-
-<p><b>TV:</b> Reading Steven Levy's Hackers once again, I was struck by one
-issue: the hackers as displayed in the book are mostly concerned with
-the hacker ethic in so far as it concerns "tools to make tools".</p>
-
-<p><b>RMS:</b> I don't think so. A number of our programs were tools for making
-programs, but very few were specifically "tools to make tools". Why were many
-of them tools? Because hackers writing programs get ideas
-for better ways to do that. What computer hackers do is program. So
-they get excited about anything that makes programming easier.<br />
-If a hacker does square dancing, he would get excited about anything on
-the computer that is helpful for square dancing. He might write a
-program to help people learn square dancing. This indeed has happened. A
-few computer hackers do square dancing, but all computer hackers
-program. So a few are interested in writing programs for square
-dancing, but many are interested in programs they can use while
+<p><b>TV:</b> You have touched on some issues of globalization is some
+recent interviews. One of the problems is that copyright laws put many
+third world countries in an unfavourable position. Do you think that
+those countries should not follow the copyright laws?</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> The US when it was a developing country did not
+recognize foreign copyrights. So why should anyone else? Of course, we
+know the reason why: it is part of a system of economic domination
+that the wealthiest business owners have imposed on the rest of the
+world.</p>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> And, furthermore, could one see this issue also in terms
+of communities? If I remember correctly, you have said that
+globalization in the economic sense does not seem to be a good way of
+promoting or distributing well-being.</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> There is nothing wrong with globalization in the
+abstract. What makes today's form of globalization so bad is not
+really the global aspect of it. It is that the WTO/IMF system
+subordinates all other interests to the interests of business. Laws to
+protect the environment, public health, workers' rights, and the
+general standard of living, are regularly swept aside. The result is a
+major transfer of wealth from most people to business
+owners. Paradoxically, it seems to be accompanied by reduced growth as
+well. The best way to understand today's “globalization”
+is as a system to transfer power from democratic governments to
+business, which only incidentally happens to be global. Elimination of
+trade barriers could be a good thing if accompanied by global labor
+standards, global environmental standards, global health care, a
+global minimum wage (even if not uniform), and global income taxes. If
+these were enforced world-wide with the same energy that the US
+pressures countries to use for copyright enforcement, we could have
+global trade, clean factories, and high wages. The world-wide free
+software community is an example of beneficial globalization: people
+share knowledge with the whole world.</p>
+
+<h3>Ethics</h3>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> How is ethcial “work” best done? It seems
+that you often invoke teachers like Buddha or Jesus as examples of a
+ethical way of life,</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> I never invoke Jesus. I am not a Christian and I don't
+especially admire Jesus. I admire Buddha somewhat more, but I don't
+invoke any teacher or hero as an <b>authority</b>, only perhaps as an
+<b>example</b>.</p>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> It is also clear that one of the fascinating and
+influential features of your work is that you live as you teach. Is
+that a conscious decision in the sense that you think that ethics is
+something that can be taught best through example?</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> Not at all. I do write about my ethical ideas, and I
+would like to do it more and better if I could. Of course, it is
+necessary to live in conformity with one's principles, or one is a
+hypocrite and people can see that.</p>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> If we say that the reason for ethical behaviour must be
+given in the public sphere, let's say through a social contract or
+something similar, and if we at the same time notice that the
+economical/commercial sphere is driven by “maximum
+profit”-type of principles, then we have to have some sort of
+separation between the public and the commercial world.</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> I don't follow this reasoning—I see no
+separation. Ethics applies to everyone, and the whole point of ethics
+is that some things you might selfishly wish to do are wrong, so you
+may not do them. This applies to group selfishness just as as to
+personal selfishness.</p>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> … and then the commercial world would be
+something that almost by necessity corrupts the idea of freedom.</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> Business does have that tendency. Corporations provide
+a mechanism to distill the selfishness out of people who, as
+individuals, are partly selfish but also have ethics to limit their
+selfishness. The result is selfishness that can often be unchecked by
+any ethics. To change this will require taking away the power of
+global business over governments.</p>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> Reading Steven Levy's Hackers once again, I was struck
+by one issue: the hackers as displayed in the book are mostly
+concerned with the hacker ethic in so far as it concerns “tools
+to make tools”.</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> I don't think so. A number of our programs were tools
+for making programs, but very few were specifically “tools to
+make tools”. Why were many of them tools? Because hackers
+writing programs get ideas for better ways to do that. What computer
+hackers do is program. So they get excited about anything that makes
+programming easier.<br />
+If a hacker does square dancing, he would get excited about anything
+on the computer that is helpful for square dancing. He might write a
+program to help people learn square dancing. This indeed has
+happened. A few computer hackers do square dancing, but all computer
+hackers program. So a few are interested in writing programs for
+square dancing, but many are interested in programs they can use while
programming.</p>
-<p><b>TV:</b> Levy is not too hard on the point, but the unscrupulousness with
-which the early MIT hackers accepted the Department of Defence funding
-is a case in point.</p>
-
-<p><b>RMS:</b> Some of the hackers were uncomfortable with DoD funding at the
-time, but they did not go so far as to rebel against it (by quitting,
-say). I disagreed with them I don't think it was wrong to accept that
-funding, and I did not think it wrong at the time. Corporate funding is
-far more dangerous.<br />
-So I would not call them unscrupulous for having accepted this funding.</>
-
-<p><b>TV:</b> This reminds of the "instrumental rationality" that the Frankfurt
-school of critical theorists talked about; rationality that pertains to
-tools, but not goals.</p>
-
-<p><b>RMS:</b> Engineers of all kinds are famous for this; I am not sure it is
-more true of hackers than others.</p>
-
-<p><b>TV:</b> So, this brings me to the question, if ethics is about goals and
-about content, what exactly is the society or community that Free
-Software promotes?</p>
+<p><b>TV:</b> Levy is not too hard on the point, but the
+unscrupulousness with which the early <abbr>MIT</abbr> hackers
+accepted the Department of Defence funding is a case in point.</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> Some of the hackers were uncomfortable with DoD funding
+at the time, but they did not go so far as to rebel against it (by
+quitting, say). I disagreed with them I don't think it was wrong to
+accept that funding, and I did not think it wrong at the
+time. Corporate funding is far more dangerous.<br />
+So I would not call them unscrupulous for having accepted this funding.</p>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> This reminds of the “instrumental
+rationality” that the Frankfurt school of critical theorists
+talked about; rationality that pertains to tools, but not goals.</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> Engineers of all kinds are famous for this; I am not
+sure it is more true of hackers than others.</p>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> So, this brings me to the question, if ethics is about
+goals and about content, what exactly is the society or community that
+Free Software promotes?</p>
<p><b>RMS:</b> My goal is that we help each other to live better together.
Advancing human knowledge is a part of this; making sure it is
@@ -413,20 +446,23 @@
cooperation is a part of this. Those goals apply to various parts of
life, but in the area of software they direct one towards free software.</p>
-<p><b>TV:</b> When and how did you notice that the Tools to Make Tools-attitude
-is not enough?</p>
+<p><b>TV:</b> When and how did you notice that the Tools to Make
+Tools-attitude is not enough?</p>
-<p><b>RMS:</b> That just tools without thinking of what to do with them is one
I
-picked up this idea in my teens, I think. It was well known in the 60s;
-one did not have to be especially searching to happen across it then. I
-think of the Tom Lehrer song, "Werner von Braun":<br />
-"I send rockets up, but where they come down<br />
-is not my department, says Werner von Braun."<br />
-Lots of people heard this song.</p>
-
-<p><b>TV:</b> And, maybe most interestigly, how do you combine the two, the
-hacking that is intense and interesting and the ethical real-world
-work, that is often tenuous and boring? </p>
+<p><b>RMS:</b> That just tools without thinking of what to do with
+them is one I picked up this idea in my teens, I think. It was well
+known in the 60s; one did not have to be especially searching to
+happen across it then. I think of the Tom Lehrer song, “Werner
+von Braun”:</p>
+<blockquote><p>
+I send rockets up, but where they come down<br />
+is not my department, says Werner von Braun.
+</p></blockquote>
+<p>Lots of people heard this song.</p>
+
+<p><b>TV:</b> And, maybe most interestigly, how do you combine the
+two, the hacking that is intense and interesting and the ethical
+real-world work, that is often tenuous and boring? </p>
<p><b>RMS:</b> Here you seem to assume that hacking is neither ethical nor
real-world. I disagree with both assumptions. By the way, some parts of
@@ -435,21 +471,20 @@
the free software community do these tasks in order to release working
and reliable free software.</p>
-<p><b>TV:</b> I think this is even quite common in fields like computer
science,
-physics, mathematics, philosophy, where the austerity and purity of the
-formalism give an intense pleasure of a 'non-earthly' kind. Is there a
-link? Should there be? And how do you bridge the two?</p>
-
-<p><b>RMS:</b> Is there a link between the pleasure of pure math and the rest
of
-life? No, I see very little connection, and why should there be one?</p>
-
-<p>I enjoy folk dancing, as well as pure math. There is very little link
-between either of those pleasures and the rest of what I do. Why should
-there be? They are both harmless. Is there a "gap" that I need to
-"bridge"?</p>
-
-
-
+<p><b>TV:</b> I think this is even quite common in fields like
+computer science, physics, mathematics, philosophy, where the
+austerity and purity of the formalism give an intense pleasure of a
+‘non-earthly’ kind. Is there a link? Should there be? And
+how do you bridge the two?</p>
+
+<p><b>RMS:</b> Is there a link between the pleasure of pure math and
+the rest of life? No, I see very little connection, and why should
+there be one?</p>
+
+<p>I enjoy folk dancing, as well as pure math. There is very little
+link between either of those pleasures and the rest of what I do. Why
+should there be? They are both harmless. Is there a “gap”
+that I need to “bridge”?</p>
</div>
@@ -459,13 +494,20 @@
<p>
Please send FSF & GNU inquiries to
<a href="mailto:address@hidden";><em>address@hidden</em></a>.
-There are also <a href="http://www.fsf.org/about/contact.html";>other ways to
contact</a>
+There are also <a href="/contact/">other ways to contact</a>
the FSF.
<br />
-Please send broken links and other corrections (or suggestions) to
+Please send broken links and other corrections or suggestions to
<a href="mailto:address@hidden";><em>address@hidden</em></a>.
</p>
+<p>
+Please see the
+<a href="/server/standards/README.translations">Translations
+README</a> for information on coordinating and submitting
+translations of this article.
+</p>
+
<p>Copyright © 2002 Richard Stallman</p>
<p>Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article is
permitted in any medium, provided this notice is preserved.
@@ -474,7 +516,7 @@
<p>
Updated:
<!-- timestamp start -->
-$Date: 2007/04/09 20:46:37 $
+$Date: 2007/06/13 21:57:09 $
<!-- timestamp end -->
</p>
</div>
@@ -497,7 +539,7 @@
<ul class="translations-list">
<!-- English -->
-<li><a href="/philosopy/rms-hack.html">English</a> [en]</li>
+<li><a href="/philosophy/rms-hack.html">English</a> [en]</li>
</ul>
</div>
</div>
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