[Synaptic-devel] [Bug #3270] UI/usability suggestions

[nobody]

=================== BUG #3270: LATEST MODIFICATIONS ==================
http://savannah.nongnu.org/bugs/?func=detailbug&bug_id=3270&group_id=2422

Changes by: Anonymous user        Date: Thu 05/08/2003 at 10:44

------------------ Additional Follow-up Comments ----------------------------
Right.  My apologies for flaming I was involved in.  ^^;

A few suggestions for the Repository config dialog (I noticed last night):

- The Enabled field should be a check box.
- Doing the above, remove the "Disable" checkbox
- The type should be more human-readable text (Binary and Source, or something) 
- also, when I'm use apt-rpm, the option for deb and deb-src are rather silly.  
;-)
- The shared edit/add bit is really confusing.  It probably doesn't help that 
every app that works that way works slightly differently... It'd probably be 
better to break this up.  Perhaps have a "New Repository" button to open a 
dialog to add one?  You don't want a billion dialog boxes, but the current way 
is just plain exasperating.
- Should the vendor drop-down perhaps show the full name instead of the short 
code?  'fr' or 'nr' isn't obvious off-hand, the full name is (a little) better.
- Also, the 'Edit' button next to the repositories should be 'Edit 
Repositories' or similar - so you know _what_ it's editing (versus just having 
to click on it to find out).

Which reminds me of a different bug I need to place.





=================== BUG #3270: FULL BUG SNAPSHOT ===================


Submitted by: elanthis                Project: Synaptic                     
Submitted on: Fri 04/18/2003 at 19:29
Category:  None                       Severity:  4                          
Bug Group:  None                      Resolution:  None                     
Assigned to:  mvogt                   Status:  Open                         

Summary:  UI/usability suggestions

Original Submission:  A few UI improvements could be used.  I strongly suggest 
looking at the GNOME HIG (it is just as applicable to GTK2 only apps), and the 
folks at address@hidden are immensely helpful for pulling together a good UI.

Some of the problems I found that confused me:
  - Quitting, the dialog asks if you want to quit and has button [No] [Yes].  
The dialog shouldn't have any actions in its body, and the buttons should be 
[Cancel] [Quit].  You are forced to read the entire dialog to understand what 
the buttons do (while my suggestion makes it immediately clear), as No/Yes are 
wholly ambiguous on their own in this context.
  - Status bar tells me to look at the console I launched Synaptic from for 
more info.  Given that I'm using a GUI app vs. apt-get itself, and I'm 
launching it from a GUI (GNOME), this message is silly.  If people wanted the 
console for messages, they wouldn't use a GUI application.  ;-)
  - The preferences dialog has [OK] [Apply] [Close].  That is completely 
meaningless to me.  [Apply] is clear in that the settings take effect, but not 
if it also closes the dialog.  What does OK mean?  Does Close save the changes 
or not?  I'd suggest going with the HIG and making all changes be instant 
apply, and simply have [Revert] [Close] or [Revert] [Accept].  A help button 
that explains the behaviour of the option would be nice too, altho I definitely 
know how hard it can be to pull together good docs.  ;-)
  - Packge menu seems wasteful, and is confusing.  You already have buttons for 
its actions.  Additionally, the menu stays active, along with its items, even 
when no packages are selected, or a category (and not jsut a package) is 
selected.  If not removed entirely, it should at least become 
inactive/greyed-out when a package isn't selected.
  - The search menu also seems wasteful.  You already have a search bar that's 
always on the front interface.  If a search menu is needed, perhaps it should 
be moved down into another menu where it won't contribute to UI clutter and 
noise.
  - A lot of dialogs seem to have extraneous frames/inset-borders in them.  I 
don't know why these are there, but they contribute to visual noise/clutter, 
and look silly to boot.
  - The Filters menu and the big Filters button seem to be redundant - you 
don't need both.
  - The bottom frames for package info seem silly/extraneous when you have no 
package selected.  Perhaps they shoul dbe inactive, or a generic (clean/nice) 
logo/help/something should be shone there instead when no package is selected.
  - With the above, the behaviour for multiply selected packages doesn't sit 
well - the last clicked package is the shown info.  It doesn't mesh well with 
the fact that multiple packages are selected in the view.
  - The Update List, Upgrade All, and Dist Upgrade buttons, while very useful 
to an apt-knowledgable person, aren't that great for n00b's.  Better naming 
could be used here - I don't have a suggestion for how it could be clearer tho. 
 The address@hidden folks might have some good insight on this, perhaps - they 
are very helpful.
  - The little arrows to represent Status aren't very clear.  Better/different 
icons should be used that more clearly represents the differing states.

Also, on a more frivolous note... the RH8/9 up2date installer has this nifty 
interface for installing package groups and individual components.  I don't 
know what they use to build this (a separate database or tags/info in the 
packages), but it's cool.  I also know that Debian and dpkg have their tasks, 
which are now flags in the control file iirc.  Having synaptic support these 
with an interface similar to up2date would be *excellent* for n00b's.  Heck, 
I'd enjoy it - it makes things simpler/quicker/easier.  ^,^

Follow-up Comments
*******************

-------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu 05/08/2003 at 10:44       By: None
Right.  My apologies for flaming I was involved in.  ^^;

A few suggestions for the Repository config dialog (I noticed last night):

- The Enabled field should be a check box.
- Doing the above, remove the "Disable" checkbox
- The type should be more human-readable text (Binary and Source, or something) 
- also, when I'm use apt-rpm, the option for deb and deb-src are rather silly.  
;-)
- The shared edit/add bit is really confusing.  It probably doesn't help that 
every app that works that way works slightly differently... It'd probably be 
better to break this up.  Perhaps have a "New Repository" button to open a 
dialog to add one?  You don't want a billion dialog boxes, but the current way 
is just plain exasperating.
- Should the vendor drop-down perhaps show the full name instead of the short 
code?  'fr' or 'nr' isn't obvious off-hand, the full name is (a little) better.
- Also, the 'Edit' button next to the repositories should be 'Edit 
Repositories' or similar - so you know _what_ it's editing (versus just having 
to click on it to find out).

Which reminds me of a different bug I need to place.



-------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu 05/08/2003 at 10:21       By: mvogt
I get the impression this discussion into the wrong direction. I want synaptic 
to be HIG compliant, but this can not be done in a matter of days. So, please 
note that I take your suggestions very serious, but I don't like the strong 
language that is used here. It does not help anyone. I was offline for a few 
days because I'm reloacting so I was not able to write my comments earlier. 
Again, I take this matter serious, but if  I don't get any patches for this 
matter, it will take time.

bye,
 Michael

-------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed 05/07/2003 at 09:35       By: None
I'm not going to sink to personal attacks on this.  You're beliefs are your 
own, no matter how much I see it as being, thru plain common sense, utterly 
silly.

The HIG is available online.  It explains the reasoning behind all of its 
suggestions.  The studies used online.  The same goes for Apple's HIG, and so 
on.  There are numerous books covering the issues.

You might also want to read the suggestion I put in, since you seem to be 
defending _features_, which I never asked to be removed.  I merely asked for 
the features present to be laid out in something more logical and intuitive.  
THe changes presented will also add consistancy, since every other GTK2 app 
I've come across at least follows the basics of the GNOME; those that ahven't, 
I logged bugs on, and the authors gladly have updated them.  Synaptic sticks 
out like a sore thumb when it looks/acts like no other app on my entirely 
GTK2-based system.

So far as whether usability is a toy or not, that's rather humourous - if the 
apps are only usably by Linux geeks playing around on their home machines, and 
not by people in the mass-market consumer or corporate fields, that sounds far 
more like a toy, doesn't it?  ;-)

My suggestions do _not_ remove features, do _not_ make the app any harder to 
use, they _do_ increase consistancy across GTK2 apps, _do_ increase usability, 
and so on.

Oh, one more note - OK _is_ apparantly the right term to use, if there isn't a 
Cancel button - I had misread the HIG.    Sorry for any confusion I might have 
added there.  ^^;

address@hidden should definitely be consulted as the professional usability 
engineers are there.  The HIG should also be consulted over my suggestions, 
since I can obviously make mistakes.  :)

-------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue 05/06/2003 at 23:25       By: argv-1
> You are an idiot if we use the right labels and buttons?

Depends on what you mean by 'right'.

> You are stupid if the button says Accept instead of OK? 
 
If you really want it to say 'Accept' instead of 'OK', be my guest. But not 
even high, holy Mac OS Classic UI (that the so-called 'usability experts' seem 
to be attempting to reimplement, poorly) does that.

> Cancel/Accept are excellent labels to use

And OK/Cancel are not?

> are used in a lot more than just GNOME

Such as?

> and the "so called usability experts" came to this conclusion by actual 
> studies and testing.

If they did any actual studies and testing, they would not have designed such 
an unusable user interface. I don't believe this for a second.

> have many many many years of computer experience

Now you sound like Andrew Tanenbaum talking to Linus Torvalds. Don't you want 
to be, you know, credible?

> It's app developers that think like you that guarantee Microsoft will 
> continue to be the dominant desktop vendor for the forseeable future. 
 
Because?

> So far as your assumptions about what newbies understand and don't, you are 
> so far off.

GNOME newbies, not compuphobes. Compuphobes do not use GNOME.

> The HIG was developed after actually _testing_ these buttons/labels/guides on 
> real people

Did anyone bother to get their IQ?

> I, confident in my intellect

...refuse to use reason or common sense, because you're just such a brilliant 
effing intellectual. Get real. And while you're at it, try testing your user 
interfaces on _humans_ instead of rodents.

> would love a more usable synaptic.

Your idea of usability horrifies me. Synaptic is already quite usable, if 
perhaps missing a feature here and there.

> Less experienced users would also love it.

Less experienced users do not use Synaptic. That's another problem with the 
GNOME HIG; its intended audience is way off kilter.

> Stuck-up arrogant fools would disagree.

Personal attacks now. How predictable.

> If you are so interested in having a complicated app with no usability to 
> speak of, I suggest using a terminal and apt-get. 
 
Apparently you see nothing in the graphical user interface other than as a toy 
with which to appeal to retards. Attitudes like that have produced such utter 
disasters as GNOME 2.

I seek a GUI application like Synaptic simply because terminal interfaces to 
APT are not powerful and flexible enough. Multiple selection, for instance, is 
a chore in these interfaces. Access to obscure functionality is, too, as there 
are no menus in which to find it. (Any terminal application with menus and a 
pointer is, IMO, a terminal-based approximation of a GUI, rather than a regular 
terminal application.)

You may be confident in your 'intellect', but I am horrified by it and the 
damage it conspires to inflict on fine and usable applications such as Synaptic.

-------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun 05/04/2003 at 12:36       By: None
What is this last comment?  You are an idiot if we use the right labels and 
buttons?  You are stupid if the button says Accept instead of OK?

_that_ is the best way to make yourself look like a frickin idiot.  
Cancel/Accept are excellent labels to use, are used in a lot more than just 
GNOME, and the "so called usability experts" came to this conclusion by actual 
studies and testing.  I'm personally quite confident in my intellect, have many 
many many years of computer experience, and I'm not offended by it.

It's app developers that think like you that guarantee Microsoft will continue 
to be the dominant desktop vendor for the forseeable future.

So far as your assumptions about what newbies understand and don't, you are so 
far off.  The HIG was developed after actually _testing_ these 
buttons/labels/guides on real people, not making half-assed assumptions based 
on a smidgeon of personal experience.  You want to know how bad even Apply/OK 
is?  Work in help desk for 3+ years.  You won't believe how many of those 
"users are so dumb" jokes you read online are based on _truth_.

I, confident in my intellect, would love a more usable synaptic.  Less 
experienced users would also love it.  Stuck-up arrogant fools would disagree.  
If you are so interested in having a complicated app with no usability to speak 
of, I suggest using a terminal and apt-get.

</rant>

-------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun 05/04/2003 at 02:42       By: argv-1
That last comment was mine. Sorry I forgot to login.

-------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun 05/04/2003 at 02:36       By: None
- The preferences dialog has [OK] [Apply] [Close]. That is completely 
meaningless to me. [Apply] is clear in that the settings take effect, but not 
if it also closes the dialog. What does OK mean? Does Close save the changes or 
not? I'd suggest going with the HIG and making all changes be instant apply, 
and simply have [Revert] [Close] or [Revert] [Accept]. A help button that 
explains the behaviour of the option would be nice too, altho I definitely know 
how hard it can be to pull together good docs. ;-) 

No, no, NO! Please do not treat Synaptic users like idiots. Not even Windows 
newbies fail to understand the distinction between Apply and OK, and the 
behavior of each.

The drive for 'ease of use' has rendered GNOME 2 unusable. I was so thoroughly 
disgusted with it that I switched to KDE, after having been a staunch GNOME 
advocate for years. I did not appreciate being utterly disregarded by the 
self-proclaimed 'usability experts' dictating how GNOME's UI would be. As it 
has been said, design a system a fool can use and only a fool will want to use 
it.

Please do not allow the seriously misguided GNOME user interface guidelines to 
destroy Synaptic as they have destroyed so many other fine applications.

-------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri 05/02/2003 at 07:40       By: None
I think this bug has to be splitted into several bugs:

1. About search:
Most users expect to get a video player program when they type text "video 
player" in field "Find Package" in main synaptic window. I think there should 
be an option (turned off by default) "Exact package searching" (which controls 
behaviour to search by description or by exact name in "Find Package" field in 
main synaptic window) in synaptic preferences. Btw, why search by description 
in synaptic 0.36 and apt-cache search produces different results ?
Search meniu item should be added to *Action* meniu, not to main menu. Also 
only one search action with ability search in package name and package 
description (like "Filter Packages" dialog in stormpkg program) should be added.

2. Installing recommended and/or suggested packages
With stormpkg installing recommended or suggested packages is very easy. Now 
synaptic contains option "Automaticaly select recommended packages on actions", 
which is very helpful, but this can also be improved - just do like stormpkg:
when user presses install button and "changes" dialog with packages (to be 
marked for installation) is displayed, synaptic could also show suggested 
packages in this dialog with the ability to install wanted ones - I think two 
more columns could be added - one with checkbox and second one with dependency 
type (depend, recommend or suggest).

3. Filtering and sorting
There are no way to filter packages by size or to find a package, that wastes 
more space on disk in synaptic. I think in main package view should be columns 
"Package Size" and "Installed Size" (or at least one column "Size" which means 
installed size) and posibility to sort packages by clicking on headers of these 
columns should be added.

About half a year ago deity - very good apt frontend was removed from debian 
:(((. This fronted had the ability to sort and filter packages list by size, 
section, installed or available version, and other parameters.
Try to use deity and you will see how comfortable and powerfull it is.
You can download deity from
http://files.akl.lt/veidrodis/misc_deb_packages/stable/ (gtk frontend is still 
buggy, but curses frontend is pretty stable). You can grab best ideas from 
deity and stormpkg :)


-------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat 04/19/2003 at 10:14       By: yeupou
« - Status bar tells me to look at the console I launched Synaptic from for 
more info. Given that I'm using a GUI app vs. apt-get itself, and I'm launching 
it from a GUI (GNOME), this message is silly. If people wanted the console for 
messages, they wouldn't use a GUI application.   »

Personally, I enjoy apps that mix advantages of GUI and terminals. I would be 
cool if Synaptic has something like the "message buffer" of Emacs. It would be 
wonderfull if any synaptics commands was available like with Emacs "M-x 
command". 

Aside from that, now GNOME people work a lot on usability but I frankly do not 
understand how they picked their order for buttons, on dialogs.
[cancel] [apply] [ok] or [cancel] [execute] etc... 





-------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat 04/19/2003 at 08:18       By: mvogt
thanks for your suggestions. I justed browsed over them and they look definitly 
helpfull. I'll answer to them in more detail in the next few days (I'm a bit 
busy right now). For all the smaller ui improvments, your welcome to submit 
patches :) It should be pretty easy as we are (mostly) using glade2 for the 
dialogs. 

-------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri 04/18/2003 at 19:34       By: elanthis
erk, one more suggestion I just noticed - the Package Description box at the 
bottom, a margin is needed - the text/glyphs rub right against the edge of the 
text box's edge, which can be rather hard to read in some themes with mild/poor 
eyes (like mine).  Just several pixels worth of margin in that box would make 
worlds of difference.


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