Re: [Qemu-devel] [PATCH 0/3] v4 Decouple block device removal from device removal

[Ryan Harper]

* Markus Armbruster <address@hidden> [2010-11-03 11:42]:
> Ryan Harper <address@hidden> writes:
> 
> > * Michael S. Tsirkin <address@hidden> [2010-11-03 02:22]:
> >> On Tue, Nov 02, 2010 at 03:23:38PM -0500, Ryan Harper wrote:
> >> > * Michael S. Tsirkin <address@hidden> [2010-11-02 14:18]:
> >> > > On Tue, Nov 02, 2010 at 02:01:08PM -0500, Ryan Harper wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > I like the idea of disconnect; if part of the device_del 
> >> > > > > > > > method was to
> >> > > > > > > > invoke a disconnect method, we could implement that for 
> >> > > > > > > > block, net, etc;
> >> > > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > > I'd think we'd want to send the notification, then 
> >> > > > > > > > disconnect.
> >> > > > > > > > Struggling with whether it's worth having some reasonable 
> >> > > > > > > > timeout
> >> > > > > > > > between notification and disconnect.  
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > The problem with this is that it has no analog in real world.
> >> > > > > > > In real world, you can send some notifications to the guest, 
> >> > > > > > > and you can
> >> > > > > > > remove the card.  Tying them together is what created the 
> >> > > > > > > problem in the
> >> > > > > > > first place.
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > Timeouts can be implemented by management, maybe with a nice 
> >> > > > > > > dialog
> >> > > > > > > being shown to the user.
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > Very true.  I'm fine with forcing a disconnect during the 
> >> > > > > > removal path
> >> > > > > > prior to notification.  Do we want a new disconnect method at 
> >> > > > > > the device
> >> > > > > > level (pci)? or just use the existing removal callback and call 
> >> > > > > > that
> >> > > > > > during the initial hotremov event?
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > Not sure what you mean by that, but I don't see a device doing 
> >> > > > > anything
> >> > > > > differently wrt surprise or ordered removal. So probably the 
> >> > > > > existing
> >> > > > > callback should do. I don't think we need to talk about disconnect:
> >> > > > > since we decided we are emulating device removal, let's call it
> >> > > > > just that.
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > Because current the "removal" process depends on the guest actually
> >> > > > responding.  What I'm suggesting is that, in Marcus's term, and what
> >> > > > drive_unplug() implements, is to disconnect the host block device 
> >> > > > from
> >> > > > the guest device to prevent any further access to it in the case the
> >> > > > guest doesn't respond to the removal request made via ACPI.
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > Very specifically, what we're suggesting instead of the 
> >> > > > drive_unplug()
> >> > > > command so to complete the device removal operation without waiting 
> >> > > > for
> >> > > > the guest to respond; that's what's going to happen if we invoke the
> >> > > > response callback; it will appear as if the guest responded whether 
> >> > > > it
> >> > > > did or not.
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > What I was suggesting above was to instead of calling the callback 
> >> > > > for
> >> > > > handing the guest response was to add a device function called
> >> > > > disconnect which would remove any association of host resources from
> >> > > > guest resources before we notified the guest.  Thinking about it 
> >> > > > again
> >> > > > I'm not sure this is useful, but if we're going to remove the device
> >> > > > without the guests knowledge, I'm not sure how useful sending the
> >> > > > removal requests via ACPI is in the first place.
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > My feeling is that I'd like to have explicit control over the 
> >> > > > disconnect
> >> > > > from host resources separate from the device removal *if* we're 
> >> > > > going to
> >> > > > retain the guest notification.  If we don't care to notify the guest,
> >> > > > then we can just do device removal without notifying the guest
> >> > > > and be done with it.
> >> > > 
> >> > > I imagine management would typically want to do this:
> >> > > 1. notify guest
> >> > > 2. wait a bit
> >> > > 3. remove device
> >> > 
> >> > Yes; but this argues for (1) being a separate command from (3)
> >> 
> >> Yes. Long term I think we will want a way to do that.
> >> 
> >> > unless we
> >> > require (3) to include (1) and (2) in the qemu implementation.
> >> > 
> >> > Currently we implement:
> >> > 
> >> > 1. device_del (attempt to remove device)
> >> > 2. notify guest
> >> > 3. if guest responds, remove device
> >> > 4. disconnect host resource from device on destruction
> >> > 
> >> > With my drive_unplug patch we do:
> >> > 
> >> > 1. disconnect host resource from device
> >> 
> >> This is what drive_unplug does, right?
> >
> > Correct.
> >
> >> 
> >> > 2. device_del (attempt to remove device)
> >> > 3. notify guest
> >> > 4. if guest responds, remove device
> >> > 
> >> > I think we're suggesting to instead do (if we keep disconnect as part of
> >> > device_del)
> >> > 
> >> > 1. device_del (attemp to remove device)
> >> > 2. notify guest
> >> > 3. invoke device destruction callback resulting in disconnect host 
> >> > resource from device
> >> > 4. if guest responds, invoke device destruction path a second time.
> >> 
> >> By response you mean eject?  No, this is not what I was suggesting.
> >> I was really suggesting that your patch is fine :)
> >> Sorry about confusion.
> >
> > I don't mean eject; I mean responding to the ACPI event by writing a
> > response to the PCI chipset which QEMU then in turn will invoke the
> > qdev_unplug() path which ultimately kills the device and the Drive and
> > BlockState objects.
> >
> >> 
> >> I was also saying that from what I hear, the pci express support
> >> will at some point need interfaces to
> >> - notify guest about device removal/addition
> >> - get eject from guest
> >> - remove device without talking to guest
> >> - add device without talking to guest
> >> - suppress device deletion on eject
> >> 
> >> All this can be generic and can work through express
> >> configuration mechanisms or through acpi for pci.
> >> But this is completely separate from unplugging
> >> the host backend, which should be possible at any point.
> >
> > Yes.  I think we've worked out that we do want an independent
> > unplug/disconnect mechanism rather than tying it to device_del.
> >
> > Marcus, it sounds like then you wanted to see a net_unplug/disconnect
> > and that instead of having device_del always succeed and replacing it
> > with a shell, we'd need to provide an explicit command to do the
> > disconnect in a similar fashion to how we're doing drive_unplug?
> 
> I'm not sure I parse this.

You were asking for net and block disconnect to have similar mechanisms.
You mentioned the net fix for suprise removal was to have device_del()
always succeed by replacing the device with a shell/zombie.  The
drive_unplug() patch doesn't do the same thing; it doesn't affect the
device_del() path at all, rather it provides mgmt apps a hook to
directly disconnect host resource from guest resource.

> 
> > With at least two of these device types needing an explicit disconnect
> > to sever the bond between host/guest makes me want a device-level
> > interface for doing the disconnect that each device can implement
> > differently.
> 
> I'm fine with having a separate command to forcibly disconnect a device
> from its host resources.
> 
> Typical use:
> 
> 1. device_del
>    ask guest to give up device, via ACPI
> 
> 2a. guest replies "done", delete device, free host resources
> 
> 2b. timeout, device_disconnect (or however we call that)
> 
> Is this what you have in mind?

Yeah, aboslutely.  I think Michael was saying we should implement 2b in
the mgmt stack.  The current libvirt does the following 

1. mgmt invokes detach-device
2. device_del
3. update mgmt view of resources, assumes guest has done it's part; does
not confirm with qemu that device has been deleted.

With drive_unplug in qemu and a patch to libvirt, it looks like:

1. mgmt invokes detach-device
2a. call drive_unplug, log warning if drive_unplug isn't available
2b. device_del
3. update mgmt view of resources, assumes guest has done it's part; does
not confirm with qemu that device has been deleted.

I can look at implementing the timeout before invoking the unplug
(that's a bit tricky) in libvirt; but given the fact that the mgmt is
invoking the removal I think it's reasonable to do forced disconnect
(even if the guest hasn't responded).

> 
> 
> With qdev, device models are connected to host resources with special
> properties such as qdev_prop_netdev and qdev_prop_drive.  Thus, generic
> qdev code can already find and disconnect them.
> 
> How can we make sure device models survive such a disconnect?
> 
> * Ask the device to disconnect itself (new DeviceInfo method).
>   Drawback: duplicates common functionality in every device model.
>   More code, more bugs.
> 
> * Let qdev core disconnect and free host resources
> 
>   - and replace them with dummies.  I guess we'd need a dummy
>     constructor method for that, in PropertyInfo.  Done right, device
>     models should be able to carry on unawares.
> 
>   - and leave them null.  Device models need to cope with that.  NICs
>     do for netdev.
> 

I like the latter here; the BlockDriverState handles nulls.  I think
netdev should be able to as well though I haven't looked very closely
though so maybe Michael can confirm if that's a true statement.

>   We might need to notify the device model (new DeviceInfo method).
>   Dunno.



-- 
Ryan Harper
Software Engineer; Linux Technology Center
IBM Corp., Austin, Tx
address@hidden