Re: Music Glossary - 1.64 Concert Pitch (2.12.2)

[Anthony W. Youngman]

In message <address@hidden>, 
address@hidden writes
> On Sat, Apr 4, 2009, "Anthony W. Youngman"
> <address@hidden> said:
>
> > Okay, I think I can modify this to a definitive version now ...
>
> sorry for my tactless reply earlier, I should have checked the present
> text rather than assume you were quoting it.
>
> > > > 1.64 concert pitch
> > > >
> > > > The pitch at which the piano and other non-transposing instruments
> > > > play
>
> the concept of transposing instruments is irrelevant to this entry and
> should be left in its entirety to 1.311

So do we leave the reader with the impression that all instruments are 
written at concert pitch? Or do we point out that it only applies to 
certain instruments (even if we don't explicitly list them). I think the 
latter makes more sense.
> I think it is both sufficient and correct to state
>
>   A convention for tuning the instruments of the orchestra.

Except it's incorrect. It's the convention for tuning, in particular, 
the STRING instruments of the orchestra. It doesn't apply to the wind 
instruments. And it applies to a lot of non-orchestral instruments 
(personally, I don't consider the piano to be "an instrument of the 
orchestra" although other people may disagree with me).
> > > > Officially, it is defined
>
> by whom? wiki?

Actually, it's defined by the International Standards Organisation 
apparently. ISO 16.

>  I suspect there is a cartel of instrument makers who have
> established the standard for what they will manufacture, but they have no
> say over how their products will be [ab]used.  Each orchestra has an
> understanding with its players, their union(s), and guest performers.  For
> some it is A=440, others 443,444,445...  Some Early music ensembles
> perform at other reference pitches for a variety of reasons we needed
> elaborate on (A=395, 415, 435, 460..) but should mention.

Which is why I said there were other conventions, that had mostly fallen 
into disuse. The implication being that there WERE some other 
conventions in current use.
> > > > as "A = 440", meaning that the note A
> > > > in the treble clef indicates a sound
> > > > that has a frequency of 440Hz.
>
> have we established a standard for pitch notation?  A4 is what we are
> discussing here.

No. ISO apparently have, though.
> > > > There are other standard frequencies,
> > > > but they have mostly fallen into disuse.
>
> HAH!!  tell that to the academy of ancient music.  Clients of our software
> are playing in some of those ensembles!
>
> > > > Instruments with a single sounding part (woodwind, brass) follow a
> > > > different convention
>
> just one?

Yes, for brass at least, just one. The ONLY exception I'm aware of for 
brass instruments is actually my own instrument, the trombone, which 
*sometimes* follows the concert pitch convention instead.

I might be talking out of turn for wind instruments, I'm hoping a 
woodwind player can expand there, but I'm sure woodwind notation follows 
fundamentally the same principles as brass notation.
> > Or we can
> > simply point people at the Wikipedia entry for "concert pitch",
>
> wiki is a moving target of varying quality, this topic is not evolving so
> fast that we cant maintain, and we should be self-contained.
>
>
> > > > 1.311 transposing instrument
> > > >
> > > > Instruments whose notated pitch is different from concert pitch.
>
> mmm, better might be to begin with the reason for the convention.
> -=-=-=-=
>  Many of the instruments of the orchestra are available in different
> sizes, each with a differrent fundamental pitch; we speak of them
> collectivly as a family, and the fundamental pitch is nominative, eg, a
> Trumpet in Bb, a Horn in F, a C Clarinet.  An experienced player with
> skill on one size of instrument can often play the others with similar
> skill, but is challenged to read for each of several instruments.
>
> One solution is the convention of transposed parts.  One instrument of
> each family is taken as reference, all music for it is written at the
> sounding pitch.  Music for other members of its family is written at a
> transposed pitch, so that when played as if it was the reference
> instrument, the notes produced will be as the composer intended, and the
> musician needs no change in reading skills.  As an example, C Clarinets
> use music written at pitch.  Music for a Bb Clarinet is written transposed
> up by a second so that the note read (and fingered) as 'C' will actually
> play as the 'Bb' the composer wanted.
> -=-=-=
I had thought about that. I left it out because I thought a player would 
know it and a composer or publisher didn't need to know it. If I put it 
in I'd rather just add to what I've written a sentence like "A 
deliberate side effect is that any given written note has the same 
fingering across all instruments in that family".
> been a while since I read a list of which instruments employ transposed
> parts, maybe just simply list em and leave it at that.

Can you provide a list? "brass and woodwind"? Or "clarinets, trumpets, 
oboes, sousaphones, ..."? Or "Bb, C and D trumpets, A and C clarinets, 
A, Bb, and Eb cornets, ..."?

There's just no way to provide a definitive list. And what do you do 
about the trombone, which for one member of the family NEVER 
(officially) transposes, for another member probably always transposes, 
and for the most common member does whichever is most convenient at the 
time :-)
> > the note whose wavelength is equal to the length
>
> the mathematical design of instruments is way beyond scope.  The stuff of
> multiple doctoral dissertations when done up properly.  End corections and
> all that.  those who doubt me can go look up some of the literature -
> Benades several tomes of course, but also Cornelius J Nederveen,
> _Accoustical Aspects of Woodwind Instruments_ rev ed ISBN-13:
> 9780875805771.

I said nothing about the design of instruments ... I've simply made the 
observation that, for ANY brass instrument, the note which has a 
wavelength equivalent to the length of the instrument is notated as 
middle C. If I'm trying to be accurate, then I can't see any easier way 
of definitively explaining how to map the notes the instrument plays to 
the notes written on the music. How would YOU explain which played note 
matched which written note, in a manner that applied to any brass 
instrument chosen at random? I could say "the higher of the two adjacent 
harmonics an octave apart is notated as middle C" but that doesn't sound 
clean and simple to me.

Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman - address@hidden