Re: Standard IDE

[Mike Miller]

On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 14:43:44 -0700, dkeck wrote:
> @Mike You are right using the word 'IDE' in this context is creates
> confusion.
>
> I tend to say in this respect Eclipse is always a 'GUI':
> -Java (install a JDK e.g. from Oracle(Sun) providing binaries for
> development e.g. compiler/interpreter)
> -C++ (get some C++ DevKit from anywhere providing binaries for development
> e.g. compiler)
> -Matlab (get Matlab from Mathworks ;) providing binaries for development
> e.g. interpreter)
> -Latex (get some LatexDistro providing binaries for development e.g.
> pdflatex)
> -Octave (actually almost the same as for Matlab: At the user level)
>
> So an IDE (for me) is the minimum set of a GUI and all the binaries that the
> developer wants to do something for him/her that he/she can access through
> the GUI.

I still think we're talking about two different things. You're using
the term "developer" above, not "user". Many users of Octave do not
consider themselves developers or programmers. Octave is intended to
be an interactive environment for easily working with numerical values
and visualizing data, not just an interpreted language for executing
scripts. The GUI we are providing is a graphical shell for
interactively working with Octave, not an editor with a "run this in
Octave" button.

(Yes, it has a built-in editor with a "run this" button, but IMHO that
is not the primary use case.)

Maybe Eclipse can be turned into something like that, but to me
Eclipse always seems to follow a workflow of create a project, edit a
source file, build, run, see output, debug. That is not what we are
providing.

Power developers will always use whatever editor or IDE they prefer
and are most comfortable working with. I use Octave's GUI, but I
develop in Vim.

> Thanks for suggesting Octclipse.
>
> Actually I'm not looking for it but asking if there is any chance that once
> an Eclipse 'GUI' with a preinstalled and preconfigured plug-in for accessing
> Octave (e.g. Octclipse) will be distributed as the standard GUI.

I doubt it. Of course that shouldn't stop you or anyone else from
pursuing that if you would like to distribute such a bundle.

> I think most important is the core developers choice for a certain GUI. I'd
> like to use Latex as an example. There is a tremendous amount of available
> GUIs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_TeX_editors) which compete
> with each other. The majority will take what comes with the bundle they use
> (e.g. TeXworks if you use MiKTeX) or where enough proper information (docu,
> QA pages) is available (e.g. TeXnicCenter).
> Therefore a small project such as Texlipse (Octclipse in terms of Latex)
> will not evolve far enough to actually ever beat its competitors.
>
> Now that’s fine of course because that’s the way things develop... many
> start rising until one of them sets the (quasi-) standard due to its quality
> and use to the community.

There have been a few Octave GUIs that have come and gone over the
years. Frankly I hope that the new built-in GUI does provide the
quality and usefulness that people want from an Octave GUI. I hope
that in a few years when people think of Octave, they think of its GUI
as one and the same thing. I also hope that people do continue to
develop plugins to use Octave with whatever IDEs, editors, language
bindings and frameworks they want to. I think there is a place for
all.

> But the cool thing in my eyes with Eclipse is that it can be extended to
> support every language, so people can use one single program (/gui/ide/<term
> that suites best for you in this context>) and do not need to install, learn
> to operate (and even learn to program/extend) dozens of different editors
> for their daily work such as
> writing source (c/asm/m/jsp/php/tex/java/pdf/yourExt/...),
> writing documentation, version control,
> sharing via intra- and internet,...,
> <another 100 things I haven't even realized yet>

That's fine for people who use and like Eclipse, but I don't think it
suits everyone's needs.

The same things you say about Eclipse others may say about GNU Emacs,
and both are probably true. I personally don't use either one, but I
believe both are equally powerful IDEs with support for many languages
and runtime environments. We've also had people on the lists running
Octave in Geany, another up-and-coming IDE. Maybe there will be an
Atom plugin now for Octave. There will always be more than enough
editors and IDEs to go around, and each can have their own plugin to
call or interact with Octave.

Thanks for the feedback and valuable discussion, and please correct me
if I am wrong in my assumptions about how an Octave in Eclipse
environment would work.

-- 
mike