Re: Is Elisp really that slow?

[Emanuel Berg]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> OK, so if I understand you correctly we are
>> not happy to be just an editor that writes
>> code and then relies on other program to the
>> rest, like compiling and debugging, only we
>> do actually want that, but we want it to be
>> more integrated?
>
> No, you misunderstood. We want these features
> to be as programmers expect nowadays.
> Whether some of the features depend on other
> programs or not is immaterial, but if they
> do, the respective Emacs front-ends should
> provide what the users expect.
>
> GDB is not an IDE, it's a debugging engine.
> It's okay to make an IDE whose debugging
> facilities use GDB as their engine, but the
> front end needs to provide the
> functionalities expected from debugging
> function in an IDE.

Yes, that's what I meant. I never did lots'a
debugging myself so perhaps I used the
incorrect/misleading words. But that's what
I meant.

> And if GDB doesn't support some popular
> language, like Python, we need an alternative
> for those who want to develop Python
> programs; we don't want to tell them to go to
> the shell and invoke pdb as
> a console program.

Again, that's what I thought I said, or wanted
to say - you are fine with using external
programs to do things, which I think is 100%
the right thing to do (to be), only you want it
integrated with Emacs.

Exactly what kind of integration, I don't know,
as I lack experience doing that even as a user,
_also_ I certainly don't feel there is
_anything wrong at all_ to "to go to the shell
and invoke pdb as a console program." I do such
things all day every day and feel no need to
change that.

>> And we want more language-specific features
>> like I guess Java has with Eclipse or C#
>> with .NET/Mono?
>
> They are not language-specific features, they
> are in general features needed in any language.

OK, FTR "needed" isn't a word to my liking...
But what I mean is they are language-specific
in terms of how one would go about and
implement them. font-lock and `forward-char'
and much of Emacs isn't.

And actually, _some_ of them features must
really be language-specific also in the sense
you refer to (which, I agree, is the correct
literal interpretation of what I said) - right?
Because I can't imagine you want all the same
little helpers for every single language
there is?

>> And we also disregard things like Dired,
>> Gnus, ERC, Emacs-w3m, and what have you,
>> which are a great help when developing... if
>> you don't talk to much instead of working,
>> that is :$
>> 
>> We also disregard that when you work on
>> a project there are often several languages
>> involved, documentation, a home page, and so
>> on and we have all that all in one house
>> with the same finger-habits, help system,
>> and extension/configuration interface.
>
> No, we don't disregard anything. But having
> Dired or the other niceties is little comfort
> if what you need is to refactor your code or
> debug it.

Right, but when we compare our editor to the
supposedly superior ones [1], I mean. They are
perhaps better IDEs in terms of
_a single language_, but we are the better
(the best?) "IDE" in terms of the
whole computer!

No doubt they will have an advantage for their
particular language as they put all their
effort into that and only that. I think that is
completely natural: a young guy can be in
terrific shape mentally and physically but not
one such guy on the whole geosphere can be the
best in every single Olympic discipline.
Impossible!

>> I think the whole (point) with Emacs is that
>> it is ready for everything, with much the
>> same approach. Want to learn a new language?
>> You can start immediately, as you don't have
>> to learn a new editor or "IDE" first!
>
> What if I don't want to learn a language, but
> to program in it? I want the tools
> programmers nowadays expect to have from an
> environment that claims to be
> for programmers.

I never used those tools so I don't know what
I'm missing. Programming in Emacs I've done in
some 20ish languages with no problems - not
form Emacs, at least :)

Sure, I didn't do it with a deadline, a 40+h
a work week, a deadline, and a I don't know how
many digit salary. And this is probably part of
the difference. I don't really care about being
the best. I want to be something I like and
enjoy. Emacs is certainly good enough for that.
But I respect your efforts and different POV,
for sure, and God willing I can find a spot to
help you some day.

-- 
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573