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RE: emacs mode line suggestions


From: Drew Adams
Subject: RE: emacs mode line suggestions
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:55:25 -0800

> > I did not miss your point. Perhaps you missed mine. New 
> > users should be encouraged to join emacs-devel if they are
> > interested in how Emacs might be improved. That is where
> > they can give their views about it and hear from others
> > about it. That list was created precisely for that, among other
> > things.
> 
> I think we are missing each others since I strongly disagree with your
> point. I do not think emacs-devel is the place for newbies to ask such
> questions. Here is.

What does "such questions" refer to? I never mentioned any questions at all. I
certainly never suggested that newbies should ask questions about how to use
Emacs at emacs-devel. When they do so, I send them here. ;-)

help-gnu-emacs is a _good_ place to ask questions about Emacs - that's what it's
for. I said so explicitly.

> > This, on the other hand, is primarily a list for help questions.
> 
> I think having the reasons behind certain "well thats the way it is"
> features of emacs explained is help.

Yes, it is; no disagreement about that.

help-gnu-emacs is a good place to ask about, or to explain, the rationale behind
the current design. I never spoke to the contrary. I'm all for such explanations
here, even without any questions having solicited them.

help-gnu-emacs is not the best place to debate whether the current design is
optimal or to discuss alternative designs - IMO. That's a design-change
discussion, not a helpful explanation of what is and why it is.

The reason it can be helpful to explain the rationale behind the existing
behavior is that it helps users learn it. And that's because (and to the extent
that) the design is coherent. If the design were essentially incoherent, then it
would not be very helpful to explain why it is as it is. Because it is fairly
systematic, knowing the rationale can also help you know something about the
relations between the parts (e.g. UI components), and that can help you learn to
use it.

> > No, emacs-devel was created as the place for such 
> > discussion. The Emacs wiki is another such place.
> > IMO, such discussion is not best on help-gnu-emacs, for new
> > users or old.
> 
> The emacs wiki is not a good place for such discussions 
> unless there is somewhere there I have missed. This group is a
> thread based group/list which enables one to easily censor/filter
> material one finds immaterial to ones needs.

1. I did not argue that Emacs Wiki is better for such discussion than a mailing
list.

2. I have seen some very useful discussions on Emacs Wiki, including discussions
about Emacs design.

3. There is a mailing list that was created expressly for such design and
development discussion. Users who want to hear and be heard by others in such a
discussion should think about taking advantage of that mailing list, which is
emacs-devel, not help-gnu-emacs.

> >> Few users do.
> >
> > That doesn't mean that that's not the appropriate place for 
> > such discussion. And it doesn't make this list appropriate for it.
> 
> I think it is appropriate. I have explained why.

You have also given statements such as "Few users do" use emacs-devel as a
_reason why_ help-gnu-emacs is a good place for such discussion. I'm saying that
that does not follow logically.

> Note I am not saying this is the "the discussion" group - just that
> the odd thread gleaning new users opinions when linked to a certain
> feature of emacs seems totally in the realms of "help". Maybe I am too
liberal.
> 
> >> And having read some of the sniping there one can readily 
> >> see why :-;
> >
> > I fully understand that, believe me. I have the scars to 
> > prove it. ;-)
> 
> heh :-) But I know you do since I have read those threads ...

If one wants one's suggestions for change to be taken seriously by the Emacs
developers, and thus potentially alter Emacs (the distribution), then there is
no escaping emacs-devel. That's the hard-fact bottom line. It might be a tough
slog, especially for someone who might not be used to design or development
discussions (I do not mean anyone in particular), but that's the burden to take
up, I'm afraid.

This is no different from most development in that regard. One must be willing
to support one's suggestions with good arguments and willing to confront
questioning and disagreement.

All progress is through contradiction, spake Dr Hegel. All.

Of course, contradiction can take many forms, and it need not always be bloody.
;-) emacs-devel could sometimes stand to be a little more civilized, no doubt
about it.

But there must be logical debate and questioning (devil's advocate and
otherwise), if progress is to be robust. Emacs is a good, solid product, with
years of users pounding on it. There is always room for improvement, but
proposals for improvement need to defend themselves. Hand-waving just doesn't
cut the mustard.

emacs-devel is sometimes tough, but the main toughness is, I think, to learn to
separate one's ego from the logic behind one's suggestions. Logical
confrontation is _helpful_ to everyone; personal attacks are only harmful.

But we are all bundles of logic and emotions; it's sometimes not easy to keep
arguments from becoming personal. Hey, what can I say? I can't defend
emacs-devel in so far as it is a contact sport, but I can defend the need to
confront, defend, and sometimes rough up _ideas_. If an idea can't stand close
scrutiny and defend itself then avoiding such confrontation doesn't make it any
stronger.

> > Again, I'm afraid there is no getting around discussion at 
> > emacs-devel, if you really want the discussion to change Emacs
> > development. emacs-devel is like sausage making and politics.
> > If you want to clean it up, you have to enter the
> > room and get your hands in the mess.
> 
> No doubt and I am not suggesting one should not. I am merely 
> offering my opinion that this is a good group for certain threads 
> discussing certain feature which seem somewhat silly to most noobs
> and some older hands too.
> 
> ** I am not ** in any way suggesting this group as a replacement for
> serious pros and cons of the majority of emacs features or hard core
> design issues.

Perhaps our disagreement is less than it seems.

My point is that discussions such as this thread can possibly influence Emacs
development if they are taken to emacs-devel.

If that is not the intent, to change Emacs, then I'm not sure what the point is.
A discussion here of such a thread seems of little value. And it could be
productive if carried out on at emacs-devel. I'd rather not see that opportunity
missed, whether I like the particular idea or not. Bringing such an idea to
emacs-devel gives it a hearing that might lead to something.

If I wanted to make a suggestion that the Emacs design be changed regarding the
mode line, I would do so at emacs-devel. That is the only place where such a
suggestion will have a chance of changing Emacs (other than in a distant,
indirect, and butterfly-contingent way). Nothing prevents anyone from discussing
the matter here, but don't expect much change that way. That's all.

> Lets face it. A LOT of customisations are done to change the default
> behaviour of emacs and they are discussed and implemented daily
> here. Something like the default buffer list contents is hardly hardcore
> emacs devel material until there would be a consensus to change from
> those who contribute daily to this wonderfully helpful and resourceful
> group.

I don't see emacs-devel as only for "hard-core" changes. I suggest lightweight
changes there all the time. I wouldn't think of making design-change
suggestions, whether heavyweight or lightweight, on help-gnu-emacs. How would
that change Emacs?

> The bottom line for me is simply : new users do not and probably will
> not join emacs development.

Newbies certainly won't propose lightweight suggestions at emacs-devel if you
keep telling them it is only for Emacs gurus and hard-core ideas. If you make it
out to be a super serious, brutally scary place, then yes, people will hesitate
to propose something there that they think might be taken as silly.

Personally, I don't give a damn whether someone thinks my suggestions are silly,
no matter how authoritative that person might be. Hey, we Americans are just big
kids with no respect for nothin - whaddya gonna do? I learned long ago that
there are no stupid questions and, as long as an honest and respectful effort is
made to communicate and understand, there is no reason not to say what I think.

More importantly, I learned that ideas progress by being confronted and argued -
the stronger the counter arguments, the greater the progress.

If I think I have a good idea and I have reasons behind it, then I propose it at
emacs-devel. That mailing list is not some sacred temple, to be entered only by
anointed heavyweights. It's not helpful, IMO, for you to paint it as such.
Newbies have come to emacs-devel, survived, and gotten their suggestions
implemented - it happens. But yes, there is some road-kill - that happens too.

Far from scaring them away, precisely because it can be a bit scary to propose
something for the first time to old-timers like RMS, newbies should be
encouraged to lurk and participate at emacs-devel. Help them dare, don't scare
them away. It's scary enough, but only a tiny few who do dare are ever eaten
alive. The minotaur at the center of the labyrinth is mostly a paper tiger.

> It is not the end of the world to discuss
> issues which new users compete with daily here to a point. Nearly all
> additions and customisations are emacs development of a sort.
> 
> I think we will probably agree to disagree, but that's life.

So it is.






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