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Re: Software/HD ecology


From: Fredrik Staxeng
Subject: Re: Software/HD ecology
Date: 21 Dec 2002 13:31:17 +0100
User-agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2

Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:

>Fredrik Staxeng <fstx+u@update.uu.se> writes:
>> >Those seem like pretty reasonable ideas; in more concrete form, perhaps
>> >they could be added to the GNU programming standards or something.
>> 
>> I think that right thing is a gnu-install program. This would be
>> called from install targets in the makefiles. It would log the
>> files installed, and then you could do gnu-uninstall emacs.
>
>The GNU coding standards in general do not presume any external
>non-standard dependencies -- that is, everything they say can
>theoretically be accomplished given only the package in question -- and
>specify _what_ you should do rather than the mechanism by which you
>should do it.

Yes, coding standards do not, on their own, actually do anything. 
The addition to the coding standards would be "the configure script
should check for the existence of gnu-install". 

>So certain package might want to use a `gnu-install' program that does
>the book-keeping for them to meet the coding standards, but they'd have
>to have their own copy of that program in their distribution (though
>they needn't actually use it if their configure script detects a native
>version).  Other packages may choose to simply do it another way.

I was think more, "if you want uninstall functionality, install gnu-install
first". Perhaps the biggest packages should require it, and therefore
include it in the distribution. But it would be overkill for gzip.

>It might be useful for users to have a `gnu-uninstall' program, but such
>a thing should be an optional additional package that uses the basic
>information provided by each package, as specified by coding standards.

I think the other way around is more practical, that the packages
directly support gnu-install. 

Perhaps I have not made the mechanism clear. The idea was the makefile
calls "gnu-install package version file dest", instead of install.sh
or BSD install. This is a simple extension of what is already done
today. 

>> I think that undo logic has to be derived automatically. Manually
>> writing things like that too error-prone, especially if they need 
>> ongoing maintenance.
>
>That's true, and maybe this would mean that most packages would end up
>using a standard `gnu-install' program/script -- but it should be up to
>the package to decide.

I would like to be able to force packages to use a tool that I trust. 
If it is easy enough to do, I would implement support for it and send
patches to the maintainer.

-- 
Fredrik Stax\"ang | rot13: sfgk@hcqngr.hh.fr
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From: Fredrik Staxeng <fstx+u@update.uu.se>
Date: 21 Dec 2002 13:50:13 +0100
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Subject: Re: Software/HD ecology
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Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:

>Actually, I think both pieces of information are useful --
>one answers the question `What files did package FOO install?'

Or which package installed file bar?

>(which I find myself asking quite a lot actually, though since I'm using
>debian I usually I can just use `dpkg -L' to find out), and the other
>provides an way to automatically uninstall the package (this _usually_
>will be the same as `cat LIST-OF-FILES | xargs rm -f', but for complicated
>packages, may not be).

That would be dangerous. Another package might have overwritten some of
the files. Of course, my gnu-install program could check if existing
files are owned by this package, and do something clever and undoable
if it belongs to another.

>> I suggest that uninstall-PACKAGE be installed to the same directory as
>> the other binaries from that package.
>
>That's good, I think.
>
>What about the LIST-OF-FILES though?

For my proposal, that information should probably be kept in dbm-files.

-- 
Fredrik Stax\"ang | rot13: sfgk@hcqngr.hh.fr
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Fredrik Staxeng <fstx+u@update.uu.se> writes:

> But anyway, since there is no specific name for mod5 there is no way
> to use five distinct modifiers (in addition to Shift and Ctlr) with
> Emacs, is there? 

Huh?

Emacs groks alt, hyper, meta, super.  I guess it would be possible to
add gold, if you need that.  I see no direct connection between this
and `direct' Emacs names for the modifiers.

Emacs has no name for the 42nd key, yet it is clearly possible to bind
more than 42 keys.

Maybe you could consider the fifth modifier to be the compose key?
(Keysym Multi_key I think.)

Or you could consider Num_Lock and Scroll_Lock to be modifiers.

-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)
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A. L. Meyers <nospam.look@replyto.because.this.is.invalid> writes:

> Trouble is, now I need help to get everyting unicodish out of my system
> and out of emacs.  Suggestions how to proceed most welcome.

Whee.  Sounds like a chore.  You probably have a lot of UTF-8 files
lying around, converting them all is probably difficult.

But maybe you can search for the byte sequences corresponding to the
umlauts and `ß' in your whole home dir.  That should give you the files.

-- 
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Alan Mackenzie<none@example.invalid> writes:

> I would prefer to have it that all Emacs frames (belonging to a single
> invocation of Emacs) are represented by a _single_ Emacs icon in the
> <alt>-<tab> display, not one icon per frame.

You could use windows, instead of frames...

-- 
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kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes:

>Fredrik Staxeng <fstx+u@update.uu.se> writes:
>
>> But anyway, since there is no specific name for mod5 there is no way
>> to use five distinct modifiers (in addition to Shift and Ctlr) with
>> Emacs, is there? 
>
>Huh?
>
>Emacs groks alt, hyper, meta, super.  I guess it would be possible to
>add gold, if you need that.  I see no direct connection between this
>and `direct' Emacs names for the modifiers.

The question is purely hypothetical. It occurred to me when I looked
at keysymdef.h that X has five modifiers, but only four likely names
for the keysym.

I can do:

(define-key global-map "\M-f" 'forward-word)
(define-key global-map "\A-f" 'forward-sexp)
(define-key global-map "\S-f" 'forward-defun)
(define-key global-map "\H-f" 'forward-class)

but what to with mod5?

In practice, there is no problem. 

-- 
Fredrik Stax\"ang | rot13: sfgk@hcqngr.hh.fr
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kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> A. L. Meyers <nospam.look@replyto.because.this.is.invalid> writes:
>
>> Trouble is, now I need help to get everyting unicodish out of my system
>> and out of emacs.  Suggestions how to proceed most welcome.
>
> Whee.  Sounds like a chore.  You probably have a lot of UTF-8 files
> lying around, converting them all is probably difficult.
>
> But maybe you can search for the byte sequences corresponding to the
> umlauts and `ß' in your whole home dir.  That should give you the files.

I'm less worried about the files but more concerned about the system.
AFAICS utf-8 doesn't really work on text consoles anyway.  But I'm a
text console fan, more precisely a frame-buffer text console fan.  No
one seems to have got multibyte text mode fonts available.

Now I have to manually set the mule screen encoding to latin-1 in order
to see that great esstset in Grossjohann, then tell bbdb to accept A\237
as well and so on.  More work, less productivity.  Me likes simple and
stupid.  Even have doubts whether latin-9 will really work smoothly
without hiccups.  My query is how e. g. to re-setup emacs to just work
with say latin-9 languages with a maximum of user laziness. :-)

Lucien
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From: "Ehud Karni" <ehud@unix.mvs.co.il>
To: "A. Lucien Meyers" <almeyers@consult-meyers.com>
In-reply-to: <873cor1lwf.fsf@wassern.consult-meyers.com> (message from A. L.
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On Sat, 21 Dec 2002 15:34:08 +0100, A. L. Meyers wrote:
> 
> I'm less worried about the files but more concerned about the system.
> AFAICS utf-8 doesn't really work on text consoles anyway.  But I'm a
> text console fan, more precisely a frame-buffer text console fan.  No
> one seems to have got multibyte text mode fonts available.

To convert the files from Unicode to ISO-8859-15 use iconv
(do `iconv --help'  and `iconv --list' for more information).

> Now I have to manually set the mule screen encoding to latin-1 in order
> to see that great esstset in Grossjohann, then tell bbdb to accept A\237
> as well and so on.  More work, less productivity.  Me likes simple and
> stupid.  Even have doubts whether latin-9 will really work smoothly
> without hiccups.  My query is how e. g. to re-setup emacs to just work
> with say latin-9 languages with a maximum of user laziness. :-)

You can set the default coding system like this:
    (add-to-list 'file-coding-system-alist '("" iso-8859-15))
Check your current `file-coding-system-alist' before doing this.

Ehud.


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