Re: [GNU-linux-libre] DSFG in perpetuity

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 3/25/18 5:28 PM, Robert Call wrote:
> On Sun, 2018-03-25 at 11:58 +0200, Zlatan Todoric wrote:
> > On 3/24/18 6:51 PM, bill-auger wrote:
> > > * pureos has a long-standing open request to remove chromium in
> > > solidarity with the other FSDG distros - that issue is o/c a
> > > separate
> > > can of worms; but i think all distros should be projecting a
> > > uniform
> > > message, however vague the circumstance, until such controversies
> > > are
> > > resolved - or *at the very least*, all distros affected by the
> > > controversy should be participating in the discussions on this list
> > You have our tracker to comment on that and can't expect us to be all
> > the time everywhere, especially not on list that proved itself as a
> > bashing field. We do read it, we just don't jump anymore in
> > discussions
> > here as they tend to go south for various reasons that I don't want
> > to
> > spend time nor energy on it. Simply removing chromium is a disservice
> > for average user and it shouldn't be a task taken easily. Also, while
> > it
> > would nice for distros to have solidarity with each other, that is
> > not
> > happening and PureOS is often taken into hostage situation most
> > likely
> > because it is funded by Purism which in my opinion should be
> > celebrated
> > that one commercial company is willing to put funds into such project
> > and not the other way around. I have now fully requested removal and
> > blockade of chromium package but next time please go to our
> > bugtracker
> > and report a bug there and start discussion (we are actively working
> > on
> > PureOS. Also all current PureOS staff are Debian Developers as well,
> > we
> > also have other duties so you can't take against us that we have lack
> > of
> > time and energy to be everywhere).
> >
> > https://tracker.pureos.net/T57
> >
> >
> > > * then, the other can of worms regarding the debian kernel - if
> > > this is
> > > what has been preventing connochaetos from being endorsed, then
> > > pureos
> > > and any future candidates should be held to that same standard
> > > without
> > > exception - again, at the very least, all distros affected by the
> > > controversy should be expected to participate in the discussion on
> > > this list
> > Debian kernel itself is entirely free but there was issues with
> > messages
> > that was brought to us and we worked on it both in PureOS and Debian
> > at
> > same time.
> >
> > https://tracker.pureos.net/T362
> >
> > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=888405
> >
> >
> > > admittedly, i have been kicking pureos a lot lately - mainly
> > > because i
> > > have been hoping to see someone from pureos defend it - it seems
> > > quite
> > > clear to me that no one from pureos is reading this list - i would
> > > propose that one of the FSDG requirements should be for each distro
> > > to
> > > elect a delegate to follow, if not actively participate in the
> > > discussions on this list on behalf of the distro - and ideally, to
> > > stand
> > > uniformly with the greater community in the grey areas of the FSDG
> > > such
> > > as the current chromium issue and the debian kernel
> > Kicking PureOS is just doing disfavor to what are you trying - if you
> > kick me don't expect me to be nice, that is not how things work
> > especially in volunteer based projects. You are also doing false
> > assumptions and that is again bringing me to first point - this list
> > is
> > toxic for no reason, if you can't work nicely you shouldn't work at
> > all.
> > You have bug tracker for PureOS if you want to work with PureOS
> > community and not stretch us on dozen of sides.
> Yelling "this list is toxic" does not help you or anyone else. Both
> Purism and PureOS did this to themselves with the long list of problems
> from the start. While I don't agree with Bill's stance, I would say
> that more time is needed to get over these issues. Being entailed and
> asserting that everyone must forgive you for past issues right now is
> not going to get you very far and you must have the patience.

Your behavior is again not acceptable - you're assuming I am yelling and 
yet proving the toxicity. While Purism did make claims it could not 
stand to it in timeframe it wanted, Purism is still moving thing slowly 
forward and even has constitution to defend such stand. Issues you have 
with Purism are not part of PureOS and I mentioned Purism only in 
context that PureOS gets bashed basically because Purism is behind it. 
There is no far or patience part - we went through process, been there 
for 2 years, got accepted as endorsed and are committed to it - that has 
nothing to do with your or other feelings.

To speak more to topic part - we were pointed to parts for being an 
endorsed distro and one is being actively maintained to be accepted, and 
that is a good requirement. Being un-maintained is disservice to users 
and a security risk as well and such distro should be promoted as new 
user will get into trouble and maybe end up blaming FSF and other 
distros. PureOS is actively maintained with public bugtracker so bring 
your technical issues there.

> Many of us are willing to forgive PureOS and Purism for past issues,
> but it is going to take more time for Purism and PureOS to show they
> are dedicated to the Free Software movement. Many of us in the Free
> Software community are still concerned about some of the current
> actions and behavior of Purism and the lack of community around PureOS.

We are not here to beg or get your forgiveness, that has nothing to do 
with PureOS and we already showed our dedication to the movement in many 
ways, but you can ignore it and continue bashing. The issues you see, 
please raise but I am aware of lack of community which is also issue for 
us - we want to have active community around it and we are already 
internally in final process of having community mails with fine-grained 
access and permissions to PureOS (and wider Purism) infrastructure. This 
should be publicly announced in April most likely (I wanted this couple 
of months ago but there are other pressing issues all the time).


> If you are wanting to fix these issues, it is going to take time and I
> encourage Purism and the PureOS team to reach out to those who have
> been a part of the Free Software community for a while instead of
> making guesses and taking a few stabs in the dark. Many of us have been
> doing this for a long time and we have the wounds to show for it. If in
> doubt, reach out.

Reach out what exactly? We will reach out for community activity for 
sure but I don't understand your tone - we already passed the distro 
review, you can either help us get better (as being an active Free 
distro is going to be always WIP) or try to fix review process if you 
feel unhappy about it. Many of us in Purism are also long time community 
members (decades and decades of experience) and we have also wounds but 
don't go around and dictate others how and what should they do. If in 
doubt - use the public bugtracker.

Z