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RE: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el
From: |
Drew Adams |
Subject: |
RE: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el |
Date: |
Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:43:42 -0800 |
> Yes, I know you're arguing that buff-menu.el contains just one
> non-ASCII char and it would be friendlier to use an escape (It's me
> who added the comment line just above the one which is causing you so
> much grief.) Perhaps you're right. But you said yourself your fix
> wouldn't work for packages with lots of Unicode chars. Where do you
> intend to put the line? At ten chars? A thousand?
I don't intend to establish a line. Judgement is needed, perhaps case by case.
What I said, in an earlier mail, was this:
"When Unicode is important for the library in question,
it makes sense to use it in the code."
That is clearly _not_ the case here. Make that judgement of relative importance
as you see fit, for any given library. I'll entertain arguments that
buff-menu.el needs Unicode encoding, but I don't yet have an opinion about the
use of Unicode in any other particular libraries.
> And how do you
> propose to inform the user, used to "code which displays as plain
> text", that suddenly this other code isn't downloadable with broken
> tools anymore?
Good question, and one that I raised in response to Eli's mail. I suggested
perhaps providing instructions on the Web site, perhaps drawing attention to
the -*- coding declaration. But I don't have a good answer. Because many people
will not be aware of this potential gotcha, it behooves us to somehow draw
their attention to it. Maybe we should say explicitly that all code should be
downloaded using a Unicode encoding - I don't know.
As you point out, and I pointed out previously, this is a problem more and
more, as Unicode is adopted progressively but there are still plenty of tools
that are not yet there 100%. We will have to live with it, until the world
(including Emacs ;-)) is Unicode through and through. And even then, things
might not be so simple.
Our best recourse, at least in this transitional period, is to be aware of the
potential gotchas and use our best judgement to help users avoid problems.
That's all; I don't have a better suggestion than that. Maybe someone else does.
My bug report was not aimed at fixing this problem, in any case - this is off
topic. My report was aimed at preventing this problem from arising for file
buff-menu.el, and, secondarily, improving the legibility of that library.
Nothing more.
> I don't care about buff-menu.el, and won't argue for or against
> changing one character; but the fix for the problem you're struggling
> with is educating the users, and pointing them to non-broken tools.
No, the fix for the problem that I reported is to use an escape sequence in
buff-menu.el. The fix for general Web site, browser, and user error problems,
is education and fixing and updating tools, but that is not the problem I asked
that we fix now.
This sideline discussion (this problem that you are apparently struggling with,
and that you think I am struggling with) arose because someone asked how the
buff-menu broken character problem could have arisen in the first place. I
tried to explain that it doesn't matter how it arose, that the bug report is
about unnecessary em-dash characters - for which explanation I was accused of
being ungrateful for help offered to solve the ancillary problem of downloading
etc. So here we are, off track.
I explained that these characters should be replaced by escape sequences, not
just because they might cause encoding problems for some users, Web sites, or
tools, but also because they reduce legibility. And because of Occam's razor:
there is no need to introduce Unicode characters here, with their potential
problems for users, because _nothing is gained_ here by doing so. That's three
reasons: 1) possible encoding gotchas, 2) reduced legibility, 3) unnecessary
complication for no gain.
We will all be struggling with the problem of not recognizing Unicode and
properly adjusting to it for quite some time, I'm afraid. I didn't report that
general problem, and I don't have a general solution for it. We can at least do
what we can to prevent that problem from arising in no-brainer cases such as
buff-menu.el. There is no good reason to invite that problem to rear its ugly
head _in this case_.
> Obviously, we can't (nor should) force anyone to change their ways;
> but I don't see why should we make extraordinary efforts to suit them,
> either.
Preventing a stupid problem, with no loss, and with some gain (legibility) is
not catering to anyone's underdeveloped ways. It's just common sense. And
replacing two em-dash characters with \u2014 is hardly making "extraordinary
efforts".
It does, however, sometimes seem to take extraordinary efforts to get the
slightest suggestion across to change something, even something trivial, in the
Emacs code. I don't know why. I don't care so much, for myself, but I'm sad to
think of others who might have given up helping long ago, when their efforts
met with stubborn resistance and sidetrack arguments. It really doesn't have to
be that way, you know.
As with all bug reports, it's up to you whether you want to consider this a bug
and, if so, whether you want to fix it, and how.
- Re: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el, (continued)
- Re: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el, Jason Rumney, 2007/02/19
- Re: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el, Lennart Borgman (gmail), 2007/02/19
- RE: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el, Drew Adams, 2007/02/19
- Re: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el, Lennart Borgman (gmail), 2007/02/19
- Re: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el, Juanma Barranquero, 2007/02/19
- Re: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el, Stefan Monnier, 2007/02/19
- RE: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el, Drew Adams, 2007/02/19
- Re: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el, Eli Zaretskii, 2007/02/18
- RE: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el, Drew Adams, 2007/02/18
- Re: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el, Juanma Barranquero, 2007/02/18
- RE: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el,
Drew Adams <=
- Re: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el, Juanma Barranquero, 2007/02/18
- Re: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el, Chris Moore, 2007/02/19
- Re: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el, Richard Stallman, 2007/02/19
- Re: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el, Juanma Barranquero, 2007/02/19
- Re: please use ?\u2014 instead of the unicode character inbuff-menu.el, Richard Stallman, 2007/02/20