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Re: New maintainer


From: Stephen J. Turnbull
Subject: Re: New maintainer
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 11:07:54 +0900

First, I second John's self-nomination.  I suspect it's a no-op given
his "disagreement with the spirit of the GPL", but FWIW I think he
would be an excellent Emacs maintainer.

I've reordered David's post to suit my own purposes, but the
attributions are all correct.

 > >>>>>> Mathieu Lirzin <address@hidden> writes:

 > >> What about Ethical skills?

IMO, John's ethical skills are unquestionable.  However, his
observations of the world and certain fundamental postulates lead him
to different conclusions about what is and isn't ethically required.

 > >> I would argue that technical skills are not sufficient
 > >> especially for maintaining a major GNU package like Emacs. Using
 > >> MacOSX & iOS as main operating systems and Hangout/Skype for
 > >> communications, seems incompatible with the role to me.

I disagree, as John evidently does.  By the way, if I didn't know he
would have self-nominated if he could, I would nominate Eli Zaretskii
as maintainer.  Do you have a problem with him?

 > John Wiegley <address@hidden> writes:

 > > I also disagree with the spirit of the GPL, vocally in fact. If the
 > > requisite for maintaining Emacs is that one use (GNU/)Linux and
 > > espouse the philosophies of RMS, that is not me.

I wouldn't require use of the GNU OS, but I'm sorry if I am to
understand that you can't at least defend gnu.org/philosophy in
public.  I think that disqualifies you:

 > > However: are you looking for someone to act as an arm of the FSF,
 > > or do you want the best possible Emacs?

I would assume Richard is looking for an arm of the FSF, as he has
done in the past.  AIUI, a great Emacs must be first, a tool for
advancing software freedom, and second, the best tool for its
applications that it can be.  I have other reasons for not
volunteering myself (lack of technical qualifications and time being
the most easily mentioned), but I would have no trouble with
enthusiastically defending the FSF position *in public* when *wearing
my GNU Emacs maintainer hat*.  That's probably not good enough for
Richard, but I can't imagine anything less being acceptable.

David Kastrup writes:

 > Well, the GPL is what makes sure that I actually have the right to
 > get the best possible Emacs once it is distributed anywhere.  A lot
 > of "best possible Emacsen" lie by the wayside, starting with
 > Gosling Emacs and arguably ending with XEmacs.
 > 
 > Now Stephen Turnbull, the current XEmacs maintainer for longer than any
 > of his Emacsen colleagues with the possible exception of RMS, is not
 > making a point of "disagreeing with the spirit of the GPL" at all

That's too strong.  What I cannot disagree with is use of GPL in a
project that chooses it understanding the ramifications, nor in that
project's downstream.  Richard is a visionary, but he also understands
the practical implications of GPL as well as anybody, and he considers
the principle well worth the problems (and in some cases things that
others consider problems he considers benefits).

As long as Emacs is firmly in the GPL camp, I have no problem
defending the GPL on Emacs lists.  I'd rather let RMS do it
(authoritative), or you or Stefan or Eli do it (more credible), but
occasionally I've stepped up when nobody else does (especially on
technical legal issues).  And I defend the GPL (without my fingers
crossed :-) on XEmacs lists, and not just because it was foisted on
us.  (I can't do the same for the FDL, but that's another matter.)

What I do elsewhere is quite another matter.

The religious principle that software freedom is an inalienable human
right that Jefferson somehow forgot to include in the Bill of Rights
is what I disagree with.  I'm Jeffersonian -- when it comes to freedom,
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the
blood of patriots and tyrants."  We need to all hang together lest
they hang us separately (well, that was Franklin).

 > even though it's sort of foisted onto XEmacs.  It's more like they
 > are driving XEmacs under different work parameters than Emacs is
 > driven, with different conclusions from the same set of principles.
 > 
 > I don't think that "vocally disagreeing with the spirit of the GPL"
 > would provide a maintainership retaining whatever it was that has
 > enabled Emacs to claw back its way to the front time and again.

I don't think that has much to do with the periodic resurgence of
Emacs.  Stefan and Yidong mostly left advocacy of any kind up to RMS.
Stefan himself openly disagreed with RMS over support for non-copyleft
software.  Emacs's GPL being a fact, I would hope John would keep his
mouth shut about his disagreement while wearing his GNU Emacs
maintainer hat (not limited to participation in Emacs lists).

 > I wouldn't go as far as calling this "ethical skills" but yes, it
 > seems like a cultural mismatch that would appear likely to cause
 > considerable friction in choosing consistent priorities for ongoing
 > development.

I don't see that as a problem, really.  Choice of license and choice
of development directions are quite orthogonal, especially since the
GPL allows you to suck in software from any GPL-compatible project.

The real question is whether a "cultural mismatch" that was openly
displayed would reduce enthusiasm for work on Emacs among developers.
I have to admit I believe it would, for the same reasons I believe it
has been an advantage for Emacs in attracting and keeping developers
vis-a-vis XEmacs.  People have stronger loyalty to organizations that
espouse their ethical principles openly.  And it's easier to cooperate
with people "of your culture" because you're "getting your signals
crossed" much less frequently.

I personally don't think it would matter all that much that it would
turn the tide in the opposite direction if Emacs had another
existential crisis, but YMMV.

Sincere regards to all Emacs'ers,

Steve



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