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Re: Emacs learning curve


From: Lennart Borgman
Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 17:59:03 +0200

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Davis Herring <address@hidden> wrote:
>> Is not this a reason for making CUA mode default? As long as it is not
>> the default it will be a second class citizen and obstacles like this
>> will remains. And those makes it quite a bit harder for new users.
>
> If it is in fact the case that "As long as [a keymap] is not the default
> ... obstacles like this will remain[]", then it would still be true (but
> about the current global map) if CUA were the default, and so obstacles
> would still remain.  (You were making a point very much like this in a
> more recent message.)  So how can your argument favor either as the
> default?


Thanks. This post was a bit fun ;-)

This was nearly the essence of my argument, but not quite. The current
default bindings have so to say been worked through. CUA mode bindings
have not been worked through. I will not say much more now. I think
you can explore this argument more yourself.


> Of course, I think I know the answer.  You think that it is not the keymap
> conflicts, but the lack of CUA itself, that makes it "quite a bit harder
> for new users".


No, that is not what I mean. You are oversimplificating here. There
are currently keymap conflicts when you are using CUA mode and that is
an obstacle too for new users that are used to CUA bindings (and would
prefer to use them).


> So then the obstacles (keymap conflicts) are bad, but
> only because they interfere with the obvious, necessary adoption of
> CUA-as-default.


This is your own conclusion, not following from the essence of my arguments.


> But look at the resulting logic:
>
> 1. Keymap conflicts make it hard/problematic to change the default.


Isn't it more the clash between Emacs traditional bindings and CUA
bindings? CUA does not in itself give rise to keymap conflicts. The
corresponding bindings in trad Emacs are also single key bindings.


> 2. If CUA became the default, the keymap conflicts would have been
> addressed.  (Because they had to be!)


Yes. And I have no doubt that the problem for old Emacs users would be
solved too.


> 3. It would then no longer be problematic to change the default.


There would be a framework for it.


> 4. Therefore, we should adopt CUA, because it's not problematic to do so.


I never said so... ;-)


> Step 3 never happens, because the benefit it provides occurs too late.


For old users, yes. But the benefits could be more users and
developers and that would probably benefit old users too. There are
many things we are not able to do because of lack of developers.


> "If the problem were already solved, it would be easy, so let's do it!"


:-)  This is one of the cornerstones in positive psychology. It works.


> My sincerest apologies if I misunderstand your thinking.  But if I
> understand it correctly, please don't construct a circular argument and
> then hide it by connecting keymap conflicts (which we're all unhappy
> about) directly to "quite a bit harder for new users", which is not a
> point everyone agrees on.


No problem. I hope I did not misunderstand you too much.



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