Re: Kickstarter was not successful... but it did help things...

[Gregory Casamento]

Doc,

On Dec 23, 2013, at 1:37 PM, Doc O'Leary <droleary@7usenet2013.subsume.com> 
wrote:

> In article <mailman.10113.1387771393.10748.discuss-gnustep@gnu.org>,
> Gregory Casamento <greg.casamento@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Mr O'leary,
>> 
>> (I won't call you doc as you've not earned it in my estimation)
> 
> Really?  I continue to offer you the choice to act maturely, and instead 
> you choose to get into a petty huff about my nickname?

You’re correct, it was a bit unnecessary.

> Look, you need to stop searching outward for a target of hatred.  Take 
> some time and think about your behavior.  Are you being the best 
> possible person you could be?  Come back at the start of next year with, 
> hopefully, a better perspective on how to set goals and cooperate with 
> people to achieve them.

I believe part of the problem might be that no one takes the opportunity to 
summarize some of these discussions at the end (i.e. take action items from 
them and them figure out a plan of action on them).   I’ve worked for many 
organizations and where this was the practice and it worked quite well.  
Perhaps something similar is needed on this project.   For each discussion, if 
they want it to be acted on, they should summarize all of the points and send 
that to the leads so that they can be considered.

> Or don't.  I'll be quite able to defend myself as necessary.
> 
>> Believe it or not I actually meant those polls.
> 
> And that's the problem.  You don't need to take polls to determine the 
> color of the sky.  The evidence speaks for itself.  Everybody *knows* 
> what changes need to be made.  The problem remains the lack of resolve 
> to form a coherent plan on how to address them.

See above.

> 
>> You do nothing
>> but criticize.
> 
> Because those in charge, time and time again, refuse to *act* on the 
> criticism.  Instead of admitting the problems and discussing changes 
> rationally, you get all snippy.  Too many people here act as though 
> problems don't exist so long as you don't talk about them ("be 
> positive!").
> 
>> Do a search in the mailing list archives. The discussion is there.   The
>> consensus was that we should.  There was also discussion regarding how
>> uikit should be implemented whether it should be implemented on top of
>> appkit (as with chameleon) or on its own.

> What, then, is the *result* of that discussion?  If it's a settled 
> matter, why the hell are you starting a new poll?  Why doesn't the 
> website reflect the consensus?  Don't think you can put the burden on 
> the world to make sense of your project for you.

I believe that something as simple as what I described above might go a long 
way towards addressing this issue.  Summarizing and taking action items and 
farming them out to people seems to be the best way to get action on things 
that we all agree on.  This way people know how to act on and resolve the 
points of discussion instead of wondering what comes next.  Something so simple 
can address a wide range of issues.   The problem is that it is unclear who 
should do this.  It’s not possible for one person to do it since they would, 
undoubtedly, need to digest many different discussions, understand them and 
then come up with action items.  It might work if, when someone knows

>> Perhaps you should learn to lead an open source project yourself before you
>> judge me or others on this project.
> 
> You don't have to be a good pitcher to be a good umpire.  More to this 
> discussion, what I am judging you on is the attitude you bring.  It 
> certainly isn't welcoming.  Are you being the kind of leader you want to 
> be?  Are you being the kind of leader you like to see on other open 
> source projects?

Quite often when I have tried to set goals in the past and shown the “resolve” 
you speak of I have been alone on my endeavors.  This is not something I’m 
blaming anyone for, but this seems to be the nature of the beast.  People need 
to be interested in achieving the goals that are determined from any given 
discussion.

>> You asked for reasons why Apple did what they did. I gave you the reasons
>> that I'm aware of. Do you want citations or something?  This is not a
>> science journal.
> 
> I wanted *good* reasons.  It's not your fault if Apple doesn't have 
> them.  It is your fault, though, if you don't have good reasons of your 
> own for copying them.  I call out Apple when they do something 
> questionable just as I call you out.  Maybe I'm wrong and maybe they do 
> have a good reason, but nobody has shown me anything convincing.

Actually the reason I believe we should work on a UIKit implementation is 
because UIKit is the most widely used ObjC API at this point in time.  iPhones 
and iPads far outnumber Macs (per Apple’s own filings with the SEC).   Building 
a UIKit implementation would bring a large number of developers to GNUstep and 
could serve to spark further interest in GNUstep’s Cocoa implementation.

>>> The question I'm asking is about the
>>> significant differences, if any, that require you to do more than change
>>> and NS- prefix to UI-.  I mean, my fundamental use of UIView isn't any
>>> different than what my use of NSView has been for decades.  That events
>>> might be touch-based is really of *very* little significance.
>>> 
>>> 
>> That was not evident from the phrasing of your original question, sir.
> 
> Maybe that's why discussion is needed.  Unless it's already been 
> settled.  Unless the polls say otherwise.  Unless . . . I hope my point 
> here is evident.

There are significant differences in how UI and NS classed behave.  UI based 
classes expect touch events and gestures whereas NS based gui classes are 
looking for mouse movements, clicks and keyboard events.   There are method 
differences, delegate differences and so on.   There are similarities in some 
ways, but the differences are significant enough to make it necessary to come 
up with UIKit as a separate GUI implementation.

> 
>> I do see value in these discussions as I've told you before.
> 
> You've also said the exact opposite.  You'd do well to stop sending 
> mixed messages.  Change your mind or don't.  Make a choice and support 
> it.  It's not difficult.
> 
>> Until you do something productive.  You're only hot air to me.
> 
> Nice way to express seeing value in discussions.

What I mean is.. while I see value in what you’re saying, on an open source 
project it is a meritocracy.  Like it or not many people on this project who 
have been committing for years will view what you say as nothing more than hot 
air unless it is obvious that you are invested in the project in some way.  To 
date you are not invested in any way other than to come here and tell us how 
wrong we are.   While you may be right on some points, it is difficult to 
listen to you or to take you seriously when you have nothing invested in this 
project personally.  Sorry, but that is how I see it and how many others will 
as well.

> 
>> You have
>> some salient points, but if you're unwilling to act on them it makes you
>> just as useless as you claim we are.
> 
> I have no authority to meaningfully act on them.  It is up to *you* to 
> say "Yes, that's a great idea, and here's some more information to help 
> you along, and here's what I'll do to make it fit in relation to other 
> parts."  Instead, all you offer is hostility at the very mention of 
> change.  As I have said before, I'm not here for a fight or to usurp 
> power.  The easiest act here will be to walk away.

The easiest act by far is to walk away.  You’re correct.  The BEST act is to 
put your money where your mouth is, find something that you believe is 
interesting and champion it’s improvement.

>> As David so aptly put it. Talk is cheap. Walk the walk. Prove youself. This
>> is a meritocracy and so far you have none.
> 
> And I will happily *continue* to have none so long as your only measure 
> of worth is the addition of code to an incoherent project.  By refusing 
> to walk in a random direction, I show more merit than you can apparently 
> allow yourself to admit.

I took the initiative years ago to take over Gorm and make it functional.  I 
championed that cause, and continue to do so, and it made GNUstep a better 
project.   Gorm is now a reliable and functional GUI builder.   In doing so I 
also took the initiative to flesh out many of the classes in GUI as well as the 
general mechanisms which are used to load gui model files (gorm, nib, model and 
xib).  Because I took responsibility for these things it improved the project. 

I have said many times… this project’s aim is to implement Cocoa.  OpenStep is 
dead.  In fact, if you look in the emails from the list you will find one of 
the first emails I sent to the list as maintainer which stated some goals for 
making the project better.  To date many of them have been achieved, some of 
them have not.   I attempted to focus the purpose of this project on one thing: 
being an API.   As GTK is to GNOME, GNUstep would be to Etoile or any other 
desktop which grew up around it.   So, I believe that the perception you have 
that the project is “walking in a random direction” is just that… a perception. 
 Your perception.  My point is, quite simply, help us by becoming part of the 
team.  It is not up to us to try to be good enough for you or to live up to 
your standards.   If you want to improve this project, become part of it and 
help.  It is easy to be a backseat driver, it is much harder to do the actual 
driving.

By saying the above I am not discounting any of your statements regarding what 
you believe should be done on GNUstep.  I’m saying, quite simply, put your 
money where your mouth is and help.  

>> No one is doing that here aside from you. All I've seen in this thread is
>> you touting how much better your way of thinking is than anything we've
>> done.  To that I say "prove it."
> 
> What you seem to not understand is that it gets proven time and time 
> again.  As has been pointed out, discussions like this keep popping up, 
> and nothing comes of them.  As a result, GNUstep remains *far* less 
> relevant than it should be.  The proof lies in the ever-widening gap 
> between who is using GNUstep's fruits and who is using Apple's fruits.  
> You're strutting around, walking the walk, like you're hot shit when you 
> really should be *embarrassed*.  Or at least a bit humble.
> 
>> I have taken many of your points to heart!
> 
> Yes, yes; the valued hot air has *clearly* been taken to heart.  So very 
> believable . . .

I *have* taken many of them to heart.  I just don’t find you believable since 
you refuse to help in any other way other than sit on the sidelines and 
criticize.

>> Stop being a pompous ass and actually do something for a change, but then
>> you might have to actually DO something wouldn't you?
> 
> It is up to you to realize that your definition of "DO" is fundamentally 
> flawed.  Until that happens, you won't be able to see who is really 
> being an ass here.

I believe we both have our flaws.  You seem to assume you always know best even 
when someone is trying to meet you halfway.

>> At least most of us are trying to actually do something for this project.
>> Have you even made one commit?  Have you invested one hour coding or gone
>> to conferences or speaking engagements or taking on shows in order to get
>> the word out?  Have you spent even one iota of effort?  What gives you the
>> right to sit there in judgement of us when you have not lifted even one
>> finger to help aside from writing these emails.
> 
> What gives you the right to demand more of me when you're being this 
> kind of leader?  From the outside looking in, you really aren't 
> projecting anything attractive enough to have people flocking to be on 
> the inside looking out.  Think about it.

I have been trying to determine what the larger community wants from GNUstep 
for a very long time.  There are varying opinions.  Some people want a full 
desktop, some people want a UIKit clone, some people want just a plugin that 
will allow them to compile for windows (al la Cocotron).  Some people don’t 
like the license LGPL.  Some people don’t like it because it’s associated with 
GNU or because they hate RMS.  There are a myriad of sensical and non-sensical 
reasons why people, even developers, act the way that they do.  I have spent a 
long time trying to please everyone and ended up pleasing no one.

Instead of continuing to criticize, please make this discussion productive and 
give some constructive criticism where you see the problems.   The issue with 

>> When I joined the discussion I told you directly that we are considering
>> your ideas and you can't seem to absorb that. You have to find a way to
>> keep arguing.
> 
> I'm just stating thing directly.  It is you who has taken the stance 
> that such a thing is argumentative.  I again ask you to change your 
> thinking.

You’re not just stating things directly, you’re being condescending about it 
and that’s what is sticking in many people’s throat.   

Greg